r/apple • u/CyberTron3001 • Jan 13 '24

Mark Gurman on Twitter - The Vision Pro virtual keyboard is a complete write-off at least in 1.0. You have to poke each key one finger at a time like you did before you learned how to type. There is no magical in-air typing. Apple Vision

https://twitter.com/markgurman/status/1745907431564063208?
2.1k Upvotes

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1.2k

u/BroLil Jan 13 '24

Honestly, whoever masters the virtual keyboard will win the VR/AR space for professionals, and I’m honestly not even sure it can be done. There’s nothing like a tactile keyboard. It will almost always be slower to type on anything else.

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u/Weird_Cantaloupe2757 Jan 13 '24

Haptic gloves with active resistance for the fingers. It’s kind of cheating to even call it “virtual” at that point, because as far as your fingers would know you would actually be typing on keys.

275

u/filmantopia Jan 13 '24

Apple made a big mistake by not making the Vision Pro compatible with the Nintendo Power Glove.

70

u/Sivalon Jan 13 '24

I love the Power Glove. It’s so bad.

16

u/nirvanaisemptiness Jan 13 '24

It’s so bad it’s good

4

u/paulricard Jan 13 '24

Best movie

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u/MrSketchyGalore Jan 14 '24

Would probably be the greatest opportunity for a cinematic ad. Driving across the country to get a Vision Pro in “Californiaaa,” and then being introduced to the Power Glove by Craig Federighi.

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u/getBusyChild Jan 13 '24 edited Jan 13 '24

That would require Apple to open up their OS... which they will not do. Which is ironically, why they do not get games unless they are over a decade old.

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u/Present_Bill5971 Jan 13 '24

The act of putting the headset on and off is off putting for a lot of people. Gloves would make it so much more accurate and so much less appealing for users. Person brings donuts to the office, time to remove headset and gloves

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

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u/ASkepticalPotato Jan 13 '24

God I don’t want to live in a world where I need to be connected like that while I’m making lunch lol

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u/molsonoilers Jan 13 '24

But what if you could have real-time instruction and a video call with another person watching what you're doing, and timers all displayed in front of you? It sounds like a nice option to have!

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u/ASkepticalPotato Jan 13 '24

There definitely would be use cases, no disputing that. I just get my weekly screen time notification and think it’s too high, don’t want to add more lol.

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u/flickh Jan 13 '24 edited Aug 29 '24

Thanks for watching

2

u/AGARAN24 Jan 13 '24

We will soon charge our gloves, glasses, shoes, watches. Oh wait we already charge our watches, scratch that.

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u/Dick_Lazer Jan 13 '24

If people leave it on to that degree those gloves would get so disgusting. If they're not taking it off for lunch, you know they'll probably be leaving it on for bathroom breaks. (Then again, most people's phones are probably equally as disgusting tbh.)

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

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u/JPSofCA Jan 13 '24

“Hey Siri, show me a peanut butter and jelly sandwich recipe.”

9

u/judge2020 Jan 13 '24

Watching videos while making lunch. I know it 's brainrot but it's gonna happen.

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u/flickh Jan 13 '24 edited Aug 29 '24

Thanks for watching

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u/andrew_stirling Jan 13 '24

Early reports suggest long term comfort absolutely is an issue.

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u/OddShapeButOkay Jan 13 '24

Back in the real world that's never going to happen.

Wearing a vr headset during lunch is some black mirror shit, lmao.

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u/ry8 Jan 13 '24

I’ve worn it. I am an enthusiast. I will not be wearing it during lunch this generation, nor will the masses.

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u/Nawnp Jan 13 '24

Do we seriously believe people will be using the Vision Pro in professional settings?

Also it would be just even more excuses to put your computer away while eating. Crumbs and grease on your device are already messy enough.

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u/ToshibaTaken Jan 13 '24

I see one good use case for professionals. Well anyone, to be frank. Multiple virtual screens instead of ditto physical ones. And since you can place those screens anywhere, there may be ergonomical wins, too.

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u/Nawnp Jan 13 '24

Maybe, I guess in theory they could eventually be used for teleconference when companies can budget them to a whole department.

I just don't see companies as betting on someone working on a headset rather than a full computer and desk setup, especially noting situations like this where there's no way to implement a keyboard as fully functional yet.

5

u/Outlulz Jan 13 '24

Meta sure tried and employees didn't like wearing the Quest for productivity. No one wants to wear a headset for 8 hours, the form factor needs to be significantly smaller.

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u/LoyalToTheGroupOf17 Jan 13 '24

If you are talking about using the Vision Pro with a Mac: Multiple virtual screens do not seem to be supported. You can only use a single 4k virtual screen. Perhaps this limitation will disappear in a future software update, but I would prefer not to have virtual screens at all and to be able to have free floating macOS windows in the space around me instead.

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u/BakingBadRS Jan 13 '24

be able to have free floating macOS windows in the space around me instead.

I just know that at some point I’m going to walk into a room and be scared to death because I left some video playing on a huge window (assuming at some point in the future it can recognise different rooms)

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u/Aozi Jan 14 '24

I mean people say that but......I just don't see it.

I'm a professional software developer, there are times when I have dozens of windows and tabs open across multiple screens, but I just don't really see myself ever needing more than 3 monitors and even 3 feels a bit excessive.

Keep in mind that there's only a very limited amount of attention a human being can distribute. If you're cross referencing something or testing something, validating, etc. You generally need maybe 2 or 3 things open at once that you're checking through. Like I might have the code open on one monitor, terminal and docs on another and a test page on a third. That's about the maximum amount of things I can shift through.

If I had more and more things open, it wouldn't really benefit me too much because again, there's a limited amount of attention I can distribute and I can very easily minimize one windows and open up another to check something else.

Even when you look at professional and most enthusiasts, you'll see that generally people don't have more than 3 monitors, any more than that is pretty damn rare and it's not for the lack of money or space. It's for the lack of need, most people just have no need for that much screen real estate.

Even if I could open up two dozen windows around me in XR, I don't see that being too useful over having those two dozen windows open in a normal computer. I still need to shift my focus and there's no way all of that will be relevant at once in a way that I'd need to cross reference everything.

And then there's the price. Like let's say you do in fact need a fuckton of screen real estate for something. The vision pro is 3500$. That is a lot of money. A a 49 inch Samsung G9 ultrawide retails for about a 1000$, you can buy three of them for a price of vision pro.

You can buy 3 LG Ultrafine 5k monitors. Or the 4K Ultrafine Nano IPS displays are 700$, you can get five of those.

If you really need screen real estate, I'm not sure if the Vision Pro is the way to go. Perhaps for some very niche specific use cases and people, but in general? Most professionals working anywhere will continue to use 1-3 just fine. And convincing your managers that you definitely need that 3500$ headset for your work, is gonna be way tougher than just asking for two extra monitors.

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u/mrcsrnne Jan 13 '24

I think they will use it in professional settings only.

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u/Romestus Jan 13 '24

The question is why would a company adopt the Vision Pro over something like the Magic Leap 2. Same price tag, actual optical AR, smaller/lighter headset, and OpenXR support for remote rendering/CAD work.

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u/mrcsrnne Jan 13 '24

Lots of reasons. Cost signalling is one.

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u/mrcsrnne Jan 13 '24

Lots of reasons. Cost signalling is one.

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u/Busy_Moment_7380 Jan 13 '24

I do believe it can be used in professional Settings but not in a situation where you need a keyboard.

I mean even the iPad and iPhone would not be great options if you need a keyboard but we still found a lot of uses for them.

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u/Radulno Jan 15 '24

Especially when Apple is not used much in professional settings. As long as Microsoft doesn't go into VR/AR much and make stuff compatible with their apps, it's not taking off there.

Apple is a customer facing company, their only professional customers are freelances and a few creatives, not big companies.

And even if companies are rich, they also want to decrease costs, this setup cost so much more than a laptop for not necessarily much more productivity (they also generally already have the screens anyway)

0

u/nirvanaisemptiness Jan 13 '24

Nah just get the mechanical third arm add on, it’ll pick up the donut and feed it to you directly

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u/thetantalus Jan 13 '24

At that point just use a wireless keyboard.

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u/andrew_stirling Jan 13 '24

And a monitor as well. Just don’t use the thing for tasks that are just fine without it.

31

u/Maatjuhhh Jan 13 '24

Don’t give Apple ideas. iGloves, Apple Gloves. Damn. I only want Minority Report gloves or don’t.

1

u/General_Chairarm Jan 13 '24

They’re gonna have to make suits eventually if you want full haptic feedback. 

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u/MechanicalHorse Jan 13 '24

Johnny Mnemonic

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u/TheTourer Jan 13 '24

This is how most all keyboards and UIs work in the future according to the video game series Mass Effect—and computer-oriented professionals or hobbyists have micro haptic implants in each fingertip so they don't need gloves to interact with the virtual UIs.

2

u/Existing365Chocolate Jan 16 '24

At that point just make it a mechanical keyboard you put on the desk in front of you 

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u/truethug Jan 16 '24

Using an actual keyboard might be easier

1

u/Nawnp Jan 13 '24

Surprisingly we haven't seen more of these relying on hand movement like that. Holding onto joysticks may be enough feedback but not as efficient anyways

1

u/jld2k6 Jan 13 '24

You could even setup some kind of board with tactile keys on it to help you with your finger placement

1

u/Kimantha_Allerdings Jan 13 '24

I don't see that working for an in-air keyboard. On-tabletop keyboard, maybe. And you'd probably only need rings rather than gloves.

1

u/Jon_Snow_1887 Jan 13 '24

There’s actually already a product like this. I saw it at a b8ta store once. https://www.instagram.com/tapwith.us?igsh=dWtld245cXc1Zjlt

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u/Nicnl Jan 13 '24

Sure, a super advanced pair of gloves with variable resistances could trick your fingers.
The problem is that we're talking about a virtual keyboard that floats in the air.
Way more than just your fingers needs to be tricked.
For starters your wrist joint and your whole arms are free to move around.

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u/thefpspower Jan 13 '24

Finger position sensing gloves and sign language, fast as fuck.

26

u/chalybsumbra Jan 13 '24

Honestly why not just recognize sign language with hand tracking? Might get a little tricky with some movements close to the head or body but it would be amazing for an accessibility standpoint and ASL is a great skill to learn.

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u/milesper Jan 13 '24

They could certainly recognize the signs for letters, but full-scale ASL translation is still an ongoing research topic and far from production ready. Many signs are moving, dependent on hand and body position, and have significant dialect differences.

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u/a_talking_face Jan 13 '24

Well I think there is the problem that ASL is meant for people looking at you from in front of you. Not a camera from behind your hands.

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u/chalybsumbra Jan 13 '24

True, but nothing some machine learning couldn’t figure out I think. Talking out my ass here of course.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

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u/OlorinDK Jan 13 '24

Why not just connect that physical keyboard via Bluetooth and get the actual keys pressed that way? 100% accurate, can type without looking, more power saving due to not having to visually process finger movements. If you have room for a headset and controllers, surely you can have a physical keyboard when needed?

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u/screenslaver5963 Jan 13 '24

I assume that you can do this with AVP, hell my quest 2 can do it.

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u/proton_badger Jan 13 '24 edited Jan 13 '24

Why not just connect that physical keyboard via Bluetooth

Yes Apple did mention you could connect BT keyboard and trackpad in the initial presentation.

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u/swinging_on_peoria Jan 13 '24

Agree. I do t know why anyone would want a virtual keyboard when actual keyboards are easy to use, nd relatively cheap and portable. VR monitors when physical monitors are expensive and heavy make sense. Keyboards less so.

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u/mrkrabz1991 Jan 13 '24

YEARS ago there was a laser keyboard that was released, it would project an image of a keyboard on your desk, and you'd "type" on your desk surface. Was meant to be a portable keyboard.

Was a massive flop as you really need tactile feedback to make a keyboard work properly.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

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u/SoldantTheCynic Jan 13 '24

But you’re still physically pushing on a screen with some tactile feedback - that’s the difference. This is a different paradigm and it’s going to take some work to get it right.

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u/SabongHussein Jan 13 '24

Any surface detected by the headset could also provide tactile feedback for your fingers if you 'type' on it directly

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u/pushinat Jan 13 '24

I actually think that might be it. Any flat surface could become your VR keyboard in this case.

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u/AnotherShadowBan Jan 13 '24

They tried this decades ago with the laser keyboards, complete failure of a product.

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u/BIGSTANKDICKDADDY Jan 14 '24

Those were trying to emulate standard typing on buttonless surfaces, but I think swipe typing on any flat surface would be equally viable as it is on touch screens. I'd get the same amount of tactile response swiping on my desk as I do on my iPhone. It'd likely be better, even, with less ambiguity in key overlap.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

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u/pushinat Jan 13 '24

Your touchscreen doesn’t neither. But it’s way ahead of punching in the air.

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u/ChunChunChooChoo Jan 13 '24

Well that’s just not true. Typing on my iPhone keyboard, Apple (just like every other smartphone company I’m sure) uses vibration as feedback. You wouldn’t get that “typing” on a random surface.

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u/andrew_stirling Jan 13 '24

Why bother though. We already have keyboards that work extremely well!!

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u/sapoepsilon Jan 13 '24

And touch keyboards still suck.

I use voice typing when there's no one around. Laptop keyboards are sill lightyears ahead of touch keyboards. And I type this as a Gen Z, I was introduced to touch keyboards long before I got good at using a laptop keyboard.

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u/yoloswagrofl Jan 13 '24

Amen. It doesn't help that I'm 6'3 with giant fingers and even the iPhone 14 Pro Max still feels awful to type on. I almost completely default to voice texting or messaging non-iphone friends through discord when I'm on my desktop. Nothing will ever replace the satisfaction and speed of a good mechanical keyboard.

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u/Outlulz Jan 13 '24

I didn't like using my iPad until I got a keyboard attachment. Touch keyboards are awful. Mobile phone keyboards at least have the advantage of having haptic feedback to confirm when input is accepted like a normal keyboard, but they're still way too cramped.

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u/mrjackspade Jan 13 '24

I still remember the first time I saw an iPhone in store.

They'd just come out. I think it was a Target, they had a demo phone up. I opened up the keyboard and tried to type something and my first thought was "this is going to fucking suck..."

It's been like 15 fucking years and it still sucks. It's even gotten worse, because now my fucking phone actually corrects words that are typed correctly, to different words. Why the fuck does my phone change words that are spelled correctly?

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u/CARRYONLUGGAGE Jan 13 '24

Idk touch keyboards work just fine tbh. Of course laptop keyboards are better, they’re literally entire keyboards.

I can still hit like 90 WPM on an iPhone though so they’re pretty good for what they are.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

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u/CARRYONLUGGAGE Jan 13 '24

I just type with my two thumbs, but pretty much yes I guess if that just means not having to see the keyboard to type.

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u/Affectionate_Ear_778 Jan 13 '24

Na...I still miss my sliding full keyboard phone. Sure, I've gotten used to typing on a screen but a physical keyboard has always been better imo

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u/slingshot91 Jan 13 '24

Sorry, did I miss some improvements since the first iPad? It feels the same, no?

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u/ctruvu Jan 13 '24

it could feel even better if they ever allowed custom sounds and haptics

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u/Ingoiolo Jan 13 '24

Typing on a touch screen feels good? Or rather, we got used to it feeling ‘meh’

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u/Antrikshy Jan 13 '24

Touch keyboards are pretty good, with all their predictive, key registration and all. I can type very fast.

Yet, it’s nowhere close to a physical keyboard. My mind works differently when I’m on a physical keyboard because I know I can type so much faster.

Dictation is very good at this point, but of course it has its own downsides.

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u/MrMaleficent Jan 14 '24

There's still something that literally stops your finger from going forward any further.

I don't think a touch screen is comparable at all.

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u/senkaichi Jan 13 '24

Seems like a “swift key” like approach would work well, basically motioning your hand fluidly through the virtual keys

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u/andrew_stirling Jan 13 '24

You know what else would work? A physical keyboard. This reminds me of Xbox Kinect. Trying to simulate a button press with an exaggerated gesture. After a while everyone realised that the best way to play games was sitting down with a controller. Like it has been for years.

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u/variablesInCamelCase Jan 13 '24

I mean, if all you're doing is playing cod, sure.

But I wanna be a jedi and swing my lightsaber around. I want to throw out my hand and force choke an imperial officer that talked too much crap.

Even something like vr resident evil would be stellar.

To paraphrase Ford, "If I asked the people what they wanted, they'd have asked for faster horses."

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u/andrew_stirling Jan 13 '24

Yeah that’s always been the marketing. But in reality all it results in is gimmicks. Unless you have a football field sized space to run around in, traversal is always going to be immersion breaking.

Anyway….we’ve already been down that road with the Wii and Kinect. After a few years everyone figured out they just wanna chill when gaming.

As for VR and gaming…. It’s not new. It’s been around for years. It hasn’t really taken off. It’s not really anything to do with technology…people just don’t really want to do it. Oh and it makes a good chunk of people sick because there’s a disconnect between what the body is experiencing and what the brain thinks is going on.

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u/burnertybg Jan 13 '24

This but with the eye tracking perhaps.

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u/wonnage Jan 13 '24

I feel like if you're using this stuff for work then you'll be near a desk anyway, which presumably has a keyboard. Why bother faking one in VR when you can just pick up a real one? People will need to learn to touch-type though (or have semi-transparent AR glasses)

For non-work purposes, something like the swipe keyboards on phones is probably good enough. Maybe just a matter of letting you slide through the VR keyboard instead of having to poke each key

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u/Rabus Jan 13 '24

I did type on Quest 3 and it's miles ahead of what is described for Vision Pro.

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u/OpticaScientiae Jan 13 '24

Why would professionals use VR for any extended period of time? I work in the AR/VR industry and nobody wants this. 

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u/Iblis_Ginjo Jan 13 '24

They won’t

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u/kelp_forests Jan 13 '24

why wouldnt you? 3D models and large virtual spaces would be useful for nearly everything. Especially since you can still use real items with it...like keyboards.

I remember when people thought computers were silly, because all you could was type documents and do math, and handwriting/calculators were much easier to use for most people. Then the internet was silly because it was just email and websites. Then PDAs were silly because who has that much stuff to keep track of etc...

In 5-10 years this has the very real possibility of providing the following experiences:

  • typing a paper: the text is in front of you. Use your eyes to scroll. Keep your research in virtual stacks you can flip through, pull up, lay out, etc as needed. Or have several documents floating that you can look at to bring to the foreground, then read through them

  • organizing photos: ask AI to make you an album, then sort through that album as large format photos on a table or in a book, and you can rearrange them as needed.

-3D sculpting, with your hands, at multiple scales

  • store different workspaces, favorite programs, websites etc, as 3D models in your room..

  • 3D spaces for design, remodeling, construction walkthroughs

-simulate real world tasks, provide overlays for another person working, 3D educational models etc

-watch/replaying any live or a virtual event as if you were actually there, with nothing blocking your field of view (chyrons, scores etc). Possibly at scale. For example, NBA finals, Super Bowl, the battle of gettysburg

-provide escape/improve immersion. The demand for escape is there...more data/online engagement, larger TVs, TVs in every room...now you can basically go "into the TV/internet".

-allows anybody who can afford a unit to have a virtual environment/experience that completely shuts out their current living situation.

its goes on and on.

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u/AnotherShadowBan Jan 13 '24

why wouldnt you? 3D models and large virtual spaces would be useful for nearly everything. Especially since you can still use real items with it...like keyboards.

As someone working in a professional setting... This wouldn't be used by anyone. "Professionals" don't just sit in an office spinning a 3D model all day like you see in movies.

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u/Radulno Jan 15 '24

Yeah 90% of jobs made in front of computer are writing an email, be on one of the Office apps doing a table, document, presentation or whatever, or working on some specific software which some (but few) are about 3D models. But those work in 2D very well since forever on monitors every pro already have. So that might be nice for a small part of professionals.

The "for professionals" thing is even worse when Apple stuff isn't selling very well for companies. Microsoft dominates that market, not Apple.

The only interest I see is entertainment. Yes the virtual worlds, games, tourism, experience, watching movies or playing games on a huge screen (2D, 3D or VR ones, you could even imagine a VR movie) are appealing. It's too expensive for that (which limits the market and so limit the offering)

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u/OddShapeButOkay Jan 13 '24

Have you actually worked in an office setting or a marketing firm before?

This reads like a terminally online goober's VR manifesto

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u/Outlulz Jan 13 '24

I think they played too much Heavy Rain.

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u/xSHKHx Jan 13 '24

Anybody who can afford one of these has a nice living situation, idk why they would go all Ready Player One. Also for the sports one, wouldn’t there have to be special footage made specifically for this? You can’t just grab an old tv broadcast and go anywhere you want

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u/Outlulz Jan 13 '24

You mean they didn't have 3D 360 view cameras at the Battle of Gettysberg that I can just pop on?

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u/kelp_forests Jan 14 '24

You would have to have special footage. So that means cameras for current events (which Apple is making, supposedly it's amazing) or 3D recreation of an event.

I think what many people who dont think AR/VR has a future aren't thinking about how AI is going to make it trivial to make 3D models. There will be a whole generation raised on interactive 3d objects, much like how there was a whole generation based on interactive text, 2D displays, the internet, etc. Apples AR/VR is also (reportedly) much more realistic than "3D" and you can theoretically walk around it/view it from different angles.

I do admit I am basing this on preliminary device reviews.

Sure it may flop but I think the chances of that are pretty low.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '24

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u/kelp_forests Jan 14 '24

no, the late 80s, at least where I was. People were not clamoring to get on. It seemed to serve no purpose apart from social contact, but not IRL, which made little sense at the time.

A PDA is basically the precursor to a smartphone and it was obvious where it was headed. Calendar, contacts, apps, rudimentary internet browsing, viewing images.

I was also alive during these transitions, and there were plenty of people pooh-poohing them.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

I’m a video editor and would love to have one ! Paired to a laptop it sounds amazing

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

In 6 years it’ll be widespread and used frequently. In 10 years it’ll replace the phone.

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u/paymesucka Jan 13 '24

no it won't

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u/IronManConnoisseur Jan 13 '24

Not to sound repetitive, but the iPhone changed the entire world and how we access the internet, and people thought the same thing when it launched. So anything is possible.

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u/paymesucka Jan 13 '24 edited Jan 13 '24

People said the same thing about the Apple Watch when it was revealed in 2015. But essentially it's simply an iPhone accessory. The iPhone was groundbreaking. And it just looked cool when it was revealed. I remember it distinctly watching it in my computer lab at school. I bought the original model as soon the first refurbished model was available. Everyone wanted to see it and try it.

Almost every successful Apple product is sociably cool. They are fashionable to wear/use. VR goggles just make you look like an anti-social dweeb.

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u/IronManConnoisseur Jan 13 '24

This model isn’t made to be worn out, it’s a tool like a desktop. Also, desktops themselves were the middle class singularity, everyone had “the one” in their house, that kids got game-time on and parents used to send emails after using the dial-up. They’re now ubiquitous, like candy. I’m not some Vision Pro proponent, just like to apply some realism to Apple’s waves of influence. Literally anything could happen, it is way too easy a prediction to say nothing will change.

Also people thought AirPods made you look like a dweeb when they were first unveiled. Them and other Bluetooth headphones that followed suit are now the only pair of headphones people wear.

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u/paymesucka Jan 13 '24

Apple computers are cool. They look cool. This thing does not. It's ski goggles. Also, Airpods are nowhere near as obtrusive as VR headsets.

Literally anything could happen, it is way too easy a prediction to say nothing will change.

I agree with this. Of course there will be new innovations. But I would not bet against the smartphone. And specifically against this product as some sort of replacement.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

I trust the opinion of all the tech giants and why they are going all in with the tech. 2030 when it’s consumer ready by being a small form factor, and then after that we expect the social integration as we become more and more reliant on it for productivity

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u/paymesucka Jan 13 '24

It's going to have to drastically change because like I said in my comment below, wearing VR googles just makes you look like a dweeb while almost every other successful Apple product looks cool when using. This is the first big product launch that has me really wondering what Apple is doing.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

It’s absolutely going to look drastically different. Meta has already achieved the full removal of the goggle with their latest production ready form. In 3 years we should start seeing AR form factors from Apple and in 6 it’ll definitely look nothing close to goggles.

People keep thinking that this google look is the idea when in reality it’s just due to hardware limitations and insane amounts of money are being invested into reducing the form factor. Most of metas 10b a year is going directly into that field of research. It’s just that meta and apple want to make sure they get established early on so they can be ready to fight when it’s consumer ready.

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u/3281390 Jan 13 '24

Meta has already achieved the full removal of the goggle with their latest production ready form.

Can you elaborate on this?

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

They recently said that they have a prototype that is production ready, as in, if they want to right now they can start making it. The parts are available and doesn’t require any special prototype custom made chips that’s aren’t realistic to send to production. For instance a custom human and laser crafted lens costs tons to make and couldn’t be made in a factory. But you would pay a lot just for use in your prototype just to see if the concept itself works. But it’s not feasible to produce because those lenses can’t be made at scale in a factory. It’s really only for a lab. But they are claiming they have a model that could be sent to be made in a factory.

The design basically doesn’t look like goggles. It looks more like a large sleeping mask. It’s very flat and uses some new lens design and tons of tiny cameras. Which is what makes it so expensive

They said it would be expensive so they are probably waiting to see how AVP plays out.

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u/3281390 Jan 13 '24

Very interesting - thanks for the in-depth response! I take it there aren’t any prototype designs online?

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u/andrew_stirling Jan 13 '24

In 6 years time it’ll be discontinued like 3d TVs. It’s absolutely absurd.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

Once the tech advances and no longer looks like goggles you’re going to love it. It’s in the early touch screen phase where people think no keyboard is stupid and sending emails through a phone is redundant. In 6 years the amount of productivity a small pair of glasses will add to your life is going to be irresistible for most.

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u/andrew_stirling Jan 13 '24

VR headsets have been around for about 12 years and the main issues are no closer to being solved. People wanted ‘glasses free’ 3dtv because they didn’t want to out on a lightweight pair of glasses. Google glass was considered ‘creepy’. And we’ve yet to find a nailed on use for VR outside some niche commercial settings such as interior design etc.

They’re going to have to vastly accelerate progress and find something it can do that isn’t actually more practical and more pleasant to do without it. At the moment though, it really just looks like geek world has went off at a tangent and has been watching too much minority report.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

The main issues are absolutely close to being resolved. They are dumping close to 30b a year now into this. The hardware is finally getting close enough. Meta already has resolved the goggle problem just last month. So many huge advancements had been made. You just don’t follow the industry that close so you aren’t aware of developments behind consumer releases. And you won’t see it for several years because of this. Several significant pieces are already done but not used because they are waiting for the whole puzzle to be finished. You also don’t know it’s full use potential as of yet neither because again these companies are waiting to get the hardware to make sense for the software. However apples vision pro should start introducing some of these useful new software features you’ll like. But it’s still far from a completed puzzle

If you followed the industry developments and what they can achieve you’d understand why meta and apple each are dumping 10b a year. Every company has made it super clear that this isn’t consumer ready. They don’t expect it for nearly a decade. They are just trying to stay ahead of it early on. Yet people still complain and look at it today and think “but this isn’t consumer ready! I don’t want this!” And yes, we know. Both major companies have explicitly said this and know this. It’s probably going to be 2030 when you finally “get it”

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u/rotates-potatoes Jan 13 '24

It just seems like such a complicated way to input text: to make words, you move your fingers in the air, and something captures their position relative to a virtual keyboard anchored to your head and gaze direction, and maps fingertip positions to letters, one at a time.

As long as we’re strapping these things to our heads, why not EEG and go straight BCI? I know the answer is “it’s hard”, but that seems like a better problem to solve than bringing an array of buttons into the virtual world.

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u/xboner15 Jan 13 '24

It’ll be easier to perfect voice to text dictation.

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u/andrew_stirling Jan 13 '24

Try coding with that.

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u/RustyWinger Jan 13 '24

Why would you want to code in VR?

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u/andrew_stirling Jan 13 '24

That’s absolutely my point. They need to figure out what this is actually for. According to some on this thread it’ll be doing everything that every other devices only better because ‘it’s the future’. I absolutely do not think this will replace conventional displays, keyboards etc. nor should it. At the moment, it’s cool tech without a purpose.

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u/RustyWinger Jan 13 '24

I'm thinking it will be a hybrid of voice typing with VR allowing picking out of words or etc to revisit on the fly with actual VR typing a last resort.

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u/AnotherShadowBan Jan 13 '24

Wii Fit Typing Edition?

A lot of people are underestimating how tiring it'll be waving your arms around and punching the air to pick a word/UI action for 8 hours.

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u/Specialist_Brain841 Jan 13 '24

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk7UdqoZUDk

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u/andrew_stirling Jan 13 '24 edited Jan 13 '24

Yeah…so much less efficient than what we do currently. 🤷‍♂️

We have ‘reasonable’ dictation right now but it’s still far better to use a keyboard to write a paragraph of text. This is absolutely the problem with this technology. It’s cool. It’s impressive. But I’m still not seeing its use case. What I am absolutely certain is NOT its use case is to shoehorn in stuff we already have a perfectly good solution for and try and make it work in VR.

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u/funkiestj Jan 13 '24

Honestly, whoever masters the virtual keyboard will win the VR/AR space for professionals, and I’m honestly not even sure it can be done.

The future is full body tracking where you dance your input.

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u/madskills42001 Jan 13 '24

Why would you even want a virtual keyboard when keyboards already work and professionals work at a desk lol. I agree with you

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u/sulaymanf Jan 14 '24

All the big players like meta and Microsoft have tried. The consensus seems to be to pair Bluetooth keyboards with the device (like Meta/Oculus) and make sure they’re visible in the VR space, or use good speech dictation.

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u/marinesol Jan 13 '24

The real winner is whoever creates a physical keyboard that can seamlessly integrate into the AR setup while being light, easy to stow and comfortable to type on

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u/Imhal9000 Jan 13 '24

Can’t someone just make an AR physical keyboard. So like it exists in physical space but also shows up in the augmented space, like a controller

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u/aFazzi Jan 13 '24

The meta quest does this

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u/himblerk Jan 13 '24

Well, I have used Quest 3 and Quest 2. And I type with my hands all the time in WhatsApp, no problem. This guy I just a person whose technology hit hard on his hype and expectations

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u/WorkingPsyDev Jan 13 '24

I wonder whether there could be a whole new way of entering text in VR/AR. The advantage of keyboards isn't their design or layout, it's their physical properties. I also don't see myself wearing "computing gloves" in the future. Maybe there'll be a clever handwriting/gesture-based system of quickly entering text? IDK, not a visionary.

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u/The_Woman_of_Gont Jan 14 '24

The big issue with “AR/VR for professionals” is the drawbacks are too numerous for general purpose use. The headsets are too fatiguing and uncomfortable for all-day use. They can be isolating and strange looking in an office environment, and just generally mess up your appearance after taking it on/off. They can’t be issued by the company the way computers or iPads might due to the need for a custom fit and prescription lenses.

And the benefits are….? Larger displays? Unless you specifically are in a field that needs VR and has already begun adopting it, it just doesn’t offer a compelling use case for most.

The need for a physical input devices is honestly among the more minor issues here.

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u/mycall Jan 13 '24

Who needs keyboards when you can read minds. That's the end game.

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u/ishkibiddledirigible Jan 13 '24

Needs to be Neuralink.

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u/landenone Jan 13 '24

I think that you could have said the same thing about cellphones with physical keyboards prior to the release of touchscreen phones, however that hasn’t turned out to be true.

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u/ZeroWashu Jan 13 '24

I am still not convinced VR/AR is what anyone truly wants. I am still fully in the camp they want what they see in science fiction movies. Which is fully responsive handhelds; as in our phones; which we can swipe to any accepting display to interact. However what most want to interact with is known as a volumetric display - basically holograms will displace VR/AR but until then smart displays that respond to gestures and voice themselves that can be taken over by whatever the user is holding/wearing

I don't believe it will be too difficult or that far off to have holographic displays at affordable pricing. I remember growing up being told video calls were impossible usually citing bandwidth and computing power but now we have a generation who grew up with it.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

Hard disagree. Virtual keyboards are as unproductive as possible. Voice dictation could be more productive than them depending on task.

Apple's demo reel shows faux-fessionals in faux workspaces for a reason: the only productive way to accomplish knowledge work on it is going to be with physical keyboards and physical machines to extend things. The most professional thing I've seen demo'd is having multiple desktops extended from a Mac. But even then, we know Apple. They are going to gate its utility on price. Either on the Vision, on the Mac as they currently do with refusing to embrace the full abilities if MST, or both for maximum profit.

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u/SCtester Jan 13 '24

I'm sure very similar things were said about touchscreen keyboards. Perhaps it will just be a matter of adjustment?

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u/andrew_stirling Jan 13 '24

Yeah not a good example. Touchscreen keyboards are still hopeless for anything other than firing off a quick email or forum post. And I’m not gonna bother shoving a headset on to reply to an email.

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u/SCtester Jan 13 '24 edited Jan 13 '24

Many people, especially Gen Z, use touchscreen keyboards constantly as their primary or sole text input method. I don't personally like using them, but if virtual keyboards are half as widely used as touchscreen keyboards, I'm sure it wouldn't be the hurdle that people are making it out to be. You're never going to write an essay on one, sure, but that's not the goal.

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u/andrew_stirling Jan 13 '24

But these brief interactions are far better done on a more accessible device. For example….im sitting at home. I get a notification on my phone to say I’ve received an email. Do I fire out a quick response on my phone or do I reach for the headset, shove it on, switch it on, find the email app and start typing? If I want to look something up online. Do I pick up my phone and quickly search? Or do I put the headset on? The headset is not going on because it’s going to be quicker and easier to use something else.

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u/SCtester Jan 13 '24

I don't think the intention is to briefly put on the headset just to respond to a notification. It's meant for prolonged use - so when you sit down at your desk you put it on and keep it on until you're done, the way you would use a computer. For most people prolonged use doesn't necessarily equate to extensive writing. For those who do extensive writing, a physical keyboard is probably entirely possible to use through the headset.

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u/LBPPlayer7 Jan 13 '24

i made a simple iphone app entirely on the iphone itself (haha jailbreak go brr)

it was painful

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u/Significant-Royal-37 Jan 13 '24

touch screen keyboards are ass tho

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u/tangoshukudai Jan 13 '24

Honestly if we invested the time it takes to learn how to use a keyboard into sign language then we would be faster at "typing" then a keyboard. I am sure these cameras in the vision pro could see your hands perfectly and have it learn sign language.

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u/MondoBleu Jan 13 '24

Wow such nope. It’s voice to text. You’re dreaming of faster horses, apple is building cars.

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u/BroLil Jan 13 '24

For normal everyday tasks, absolutely. Try coding with diction. A mechanical, or virtually mechanical text input method will always be necessary for some tasks.

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u/MondoBleu Jan 13 '24

For sure! Just get a Bluetooth keyboard.

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u/Afc_josh12 Jan 13 '24

Same way u text on watch, just actually write the words

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

[deleted]

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u/sapoepsilon Jan 13 '24

1 year or 1000 years?

We want it NOW.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '24

Meta has tech for voice to text without actually speaking

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u/Simply_Epic Jan 13 '24

Gesture inputs will likely be the best input that doesn’t require hardware. Maybe they could come up with their own gestures, but I think the most optimal would be if you could sign in your local sign language and the headset could detect it and translate it into written text.

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u/StrombergsWetUtopia Jan 13 '24

Yes. Needing to learn sign language is really going to help the barrier to entry.

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u/Blaexe Jan 13 '24

In-air keyboards won't be practical but I can imagine something like this being actually usable.

https://www.uploadvr.com/meta-research-any-flat-surface-virtual-keyboard/

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u/xRyozuo Jan 13 '24

It seems the obvious answer would be to not have a keyboard and maybe use some kind of voice to text along with some hotkeys with the controllers

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u/Checktaschu Jan 13 '24

Maybe we just need to learn sign language.

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u/KaliQt Jan 13 '24

Surface typing. Everyone types on phone screens and that is without any tactile feedback like vibration (unless you want to burn battery). Just let a user type on any hard surface.

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u/Wendals87 Jan 13 '24

I feel the same way. I even have haptic feedback enabled on my phone soft keyboard

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u/mrrooftops Jan 13 '24

It'll probably be a new approach to typing that will require learning and that will only be accepted once a critical mass of social pressure has been created.

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u/k-u-sh Jan 13 '24

I feel like it's similar to how keyboards on touch screens have become pretty good, but not great...to the point where there are keyboard folios for the iPad.

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u/ColorfulImaginati0n Jan 13 '24

Maybe something like swipe to text but with your eyeballs?

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u/sCREAMINGcAMMELcASE Jan 13 '24

How about tapping virtual keys and you get haptic feedback in the headset 🥸

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u/JustinGitelmanMusic Jan 13 '24

Professionals will just use a physical keyboard as you can already do right now. 

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '24

The keyboard has to go

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u/eneiner Jan 14 '24

Quest has this in a few ways. This is one of them. https://youtu.be/43rRCPARIuM?si=Xz0Ba5FStqNDh9Gk

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u/elcubiche Jan 14 '24

This sounds a lot like when BlackBerry and Palm were dominant and people didn’t like losing their keyboards…

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u/skdslztmsIrlnmpqzwfs Jan 14 '24

with AR being a whole new medium maybe people should stop trying to emulate a 70 year old device and get creative finding a whole new way of data input using its real strenghts..

smartphones carried the headphone jack for ages until Apple had the courage to ditch it... everyone cried and turns out we are better off without it. now all phones ditched it too...

sure there are situations where its nice but point is people are trying to force a mechanical keyboard into an environment that is the literal opposite of "mechanical"