r/animalid • u/aLonerDottieArebel • Oct 29 '24
Please settle a debate Bobcat or Cougar? [Massachusetts] šÆš± UNKNOWN FELINE š±šÆ
For years people have been saying there are mountain lions here. There has been evidence of one or two being hit by cars over a decade ago, and some SCAT ID by state biologists. Recently an animal control officer made a post, confirming a sighting- but no photographic evidence has ever been confirmed. EVER. Someone just posted this and seems pretty certain itās a mountain lion. I believe they pass through, but no dens have ever been found.
I think itās just a big bobcat. Thoughts?
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u/Less_Rutabaga2316 Oct 29 '24
Beefy bobcat (Lynx rufus)
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u/aLonerDottieArebel Oct 29 '24
Thank you! How do I even explain to these people itās a bobcat?! They are saying āTHIS IS 100% a mountain lion!ā
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u/Less_Rutabaga2316 Oct 29 '24
Difficult to convince people who want to believe something otherwise, but even with the photo quality, the head, especially eye:nose ratio, isnāt great enough for a puma, but is great for bobcat. Additionally, there appear to be markings on the inside of the right forelimb.
Pumas are the cat with the widest global distribution unless all lynx species are combined. Puma have been spotted and one unfortunately even killed by police in Iowaās capital of all places. Theyāre extremely adaptable and growing in number, so they should be expected to reclaim their historic range where prey is suitable, but this animal doesnāt appear to be one.
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u/aLonerDottieArebel Oct 29 '24
Oh for sure- Iām not denying their existence at all! The state is very hush hush about it and have denied all claims of them. Iām one of the people who believes!! Or wants to believe. Itās not like thereās a fence around this state. I just think we need more evidence to solidify their existence. And so far, itās been āwell my neighbors sister saidā¦ā āI heard in the 90ās that..ā
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u/MaDrAv Oct 29 '24
I think there is a bit of misunderstanding when state wildlife agencies "deny" something. We face the same thing here in Michigan. Everyone says the DNR constantly denies mountain lion in the state, specifically the UP, but that isn't what is happening. They are saying there isn't an established population. They aren't breeding/having babies here, they aren't actively spending their entire lives here. They are looking for territory, passing through, looking for a mate, etc. Traveling, and we all know cats travel A LOT.
But I am just talking about Michigan, Mass might be totally different!
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u/erossthescienceboss š¦š¦ GENERAL KNOW IT ALL š¦š¦ Oct 29 '24
This is absolutely correct ā itās also the case in Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. All males.
Females come later.
We know there arenāt any in Massachusetts for the same reason we know there ARE lions in those other states: big predators leave big signs, and the further east you go, the more those signs get noticed.
The last cougar to be seen in the northeast was a male (dispersing from the Dakotas, as confirmed by genetic testing) that was struck by a car in Connecticut.
Scientists literally watched this cat disperse in real-time. They saw him on trail cameras, captured him on home security systems, found (and tested the generic material of) his scat, saw kills, and found tracks. They knew he was in Connecticut before he was killed ā just like they knew he was in every other state he passed through.
Even the most remote areas east of Illinois would force a lion to pass through more populated areas. And this lion came through nearly a decade ago: today, way more people have home security systems.
So no, there are no cougars in Massachusetts.
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u/aLonerDottieArebel Oct 29 '24
Aha! She replied to me when I asked her to please put something in the same spot and take another photo for size reference. Her response? āI canāt-Itās not my photo!ā
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u/LeeHeimer Oct 30 '24
Agree with everything you said, and agree that probably 99% of these cats are transient males, but there was a female mountain lion killed by the DNR in Iowa in 2017.
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u/erossthescienceboss š¦š¦ GENERAL KNOW IT ALL š¦š¦ Oct 30 '24
I heard about a lion getting killed, but didnāt hear she was female! That is AWESOME (I mean, not for her, but for the species,) THANK you!
Genuinely surprised I didnāt know because Iām literally working on a book about cougars and human interactions. But this opens up some rabbit holesā¦ maybe itās time for a trip to Iowa!
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u/Less_Rutabaga2316 Oct 29 '24
I think Michigan or not itās much the same everywhere that isnāt already established puma range, although their (pre)historic range was basically all of North and South America.
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u/paperwasp3 Oct 30 '24
I mean, maybe there are puma in Maine. Those woods are deep and there are certain parts of it that only loggers go to. MA is way more populated than ME and I would be shocked if there were any breeding couples there.
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u/Less_Rutabaga2316 Oct 29 '24
Which is surprising, in Des Moines, Iowa, there was one years ago as I mentioned shot by police, but others have 100% without a doubt appeared on peopleās backyard security cameras. Theyāre sneaky animals, theyāre cats, but cameras are everywhere now and even young confused males looking to find a territory have enough roadkill alone anywhere to live off, so itās just surprising someone hasnāt gotten incontrovertible footage, yet.
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u/aLonerDottieArebel Oct 29 '24
I am surprised too. I live in the STICKS and thereās hundreds, if not thousands of cameras out there. Private and state owned. You would have thoughtā¦ I donāt know. Itās also turning into some weird conspiracy about the fish and wildlife dept covering things up. Idk, just wanted to see what others thought. (That arenāt boomers)
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u/longhairedcountryboy Oct 29 '24
I live way in the sticks and have cameras. Thing is, I never look at them unless someting happens and I have a reason to.
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u/aLonerDottieArebel Oct 30 '24
With the cellular cameras now itās pretty easy to check all the time. But yeah, with my regular ones I leave out for months. Youād still think if there were any spotted they would be posted online
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u/longhairedcountryboy Oct 30 '24
I can check them right now. There's a lot of short clips to look at. I just let it go unless something happens. A bear got in the trash and I found it on camera not long ago. Hard to tell how many times things are recorded that never get seen.
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u/Beruthiel999 Oct 30 '24
There was one killed by police in a pretty densely urban Chicago neighborhood in 2008. https://abc7chicago.com/archive/6080893/
Probably some asshole's inappropriate pet, but who knows?
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u/drmehmetoz š¦ WILDLIFE BIOLOGIST š¦ Oct 29 '24
Agreed with everything the other guy just said. Additionally, itās relative size to the plants isnāt big enough for a mountain lion. Gotta think about the relative size of the animal compared to things with known sizes (aka you canāt just look at it and say that animal looks big with no point of size reference)
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u/aLonerDottieArebel Oct 29 '24
I know- I really want the OP to go out to that spot so I could have some sort of size reference
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u/erossthescienceboss š¦š¦ GENERAL KNOW IT ALL š¦š¦ Oct 29 '24
Hereās what I usually say, though itās more about alleged New England mountain lions in general than this particular photo: for there to be a lion here, it has to travel here. And they canāt make it here without us knowing. Itās just to populated.
Hereās how we know:
The cougar hit by a car (it was just one, and in Connecticut, not Massachusetts) was born in the Dakotas. It was a male, who left in search of a mate. This is very common: areas are populated first by males, who roam far search of females and new territory, and later by females.
We know these things about the Connecticut cat because we tracked pretty much every mile of his journey. Long before this cougar arrived in Connecticut and was struck by a car, his kills were seen, and his tracks were seen, and his scat was seen, and he was seen. He didnāt appear out of nowhere, his journey was tracked in real time.
He went through less populated areas, but we saw him on security cameras nonetheless. His tracks and scat were reported to local game authorities, too. It was a pretty big story, if you knew where to look.
Today, there are more trail cameras, more home security cameras, and more people recreating outdoors than there ever have been. If a cougar were here, we would know.
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u/Less_Rutabaga2316 Oct 29 '24
Great answer.
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u/erossthescienceboss š¦š¦ GENERAL KNOW IT ALL š¦š¦ Oct 29 '24
Thank you! Youāve been doing good work all over this thread too :)
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u/speckyradge Oct 29 '24
Jawline - looks like it has the classic Tufts of fur that come to a point.
Coloration pattern - the front leg furthest from the camera has dark striping.
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u/Smedley5 Oct 29 '24
Have them look at the head carefully then compare to a cougar. Also the lack of tail ha ha although I know they will say it's the angle. Also look carefully at the size of the surrounding foliage - this animal is not as large as a mountain lion.
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u/Less_Rutabaga2316 Oct 29 '24
Yeah plenty of people when these ābobcat or cougar?ā posts pop up have excuses galore for absence of tail or their not seeing a bobbed tail.
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u/aLonerDottieArebel Oct 29 '24
They are saying the angle š I said have you seen how long a cougars tail is?! Youd definitely be able to see it from this one.
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u/TributeToStupidity Oct 31 '24
I thought I was missing something since this is the first comment that mentioned the tail lol
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u/Mr_MacGrubber Oct 29 '24
The head is small compared to the body. The black marks on the inside of the front legs are usually a sign of a bobcat too
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u/tweenalibi Oct 29 '24
I think thereās a bit of eye trickery here that is making the cat seem so bigger which is probably deceiving people. Also people want to see a rare animal so theyāll believe whatever they want to lol
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u/Je_in_BC Oct 30 '24
Some vestige of childhood, deep inside me, always giggles when I read "Lynx rufus".
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u/altarwisebyowllight Oct 29 '24
Good lord, that's not just a bobcat, but a Robert-the-Brucecat. What a beefy boi.
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u/The-Mrs-H Oct 30 '24
The best comment in the thread! This should hands down be the top comment š
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u/outrightbrick Oct 30 '24
Lack of tail..... Bobcatš
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u/stainedglassmermaid Oct 30 '24
Yes. A cougar tail is almost as long as a cougars body, if not longer and usually up.
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u/ageekyninja Oct 29 '24
Highly unlikely to be a mountain lion at your location. Bobcats can get pretty huge.
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u/raptorphile š¦ WILDLIFE BIOLOGIST š¦ Oct 30 '24
bobcat, but there's a cougar biologist here so just read their response :)
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u/TheMrNeffels š¦š¦ WILDLIFE EXPERT š¦š¦ Oct 30 '24
I'm not a bobcat or mountain lion expert but I am a wildlife photographer and I've looked at/taken hundreds of thousands of wildlife photos from trailcams, cellphones, and DSLR/mirroless cameras.
It's a bobcat. The size is too small for even a young cougar in late summer. A lot of people have a very hard time judging size from a photo and don't understand how different focal lengths affect the appearance of things in photos.
A few things that can help judge size is plant heights. It's hard to tell exact ID of the plants growing but the grasses and forbs behind the bobcat appear to be species that are going to be about 4~ feet tall. The cat isn't even half the height of the plants behind it even though it's closer to the camera. If it was right up against the taller prairie plants it'd appear even shorter.
The grass the bobcat is in appears to be a path that is mowed and possibly something like a fescue that starts to lay over once it gets between 6-8 inches tall. Either way it's only a few inches tall and the cats belly isn't much higher than it. A mountain lions belly would be higher. This is the biggest giveaway. I truly can not emphasize enough that this cat isn't that big at all. It'd be like seeing small dog species like a jack Russel terrier and saying it was a German shepherd.
Now for the "long tail". First off bobcats tails are quite a bit longer than the name would imply. People think they have tails that are more like a little nub or almost a cotton ball on their butt. Their tails are actually up to about 8~ inches long and will hang down below their "knees" when stretched out. Link to a pic below. I see several comments saying "look at it behind the leg stretching down" but if you look close you can see the tail changes to a black color meaning that is the tip of the tail. A mountain lion wouldn't have that color change in the middle of the tail. I think the thing to the right of the pole a few people pointed out isn't part of the tail at all and is some piece of the pole or plant that's cut off. If there is a full uncropped image that would confirm that or not.
https://images.app.goo.gl/XA1eg13muHSr8hyRA
The face isn't right for a mountain lion. The face comes into a more narrow point and falls off a bit quicker from forehead to nose. A mountain lions face has a more gradual fall off, more dog like, than a bobcat. You can also see the prominent cheek hair with the black lines on it which is indicative of a bobcat and not a mountain lion.
You can also see markings on the inner part of the cats legs. Again doesn't point to a mountain lion.
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u/AdunfromAD Oct 30 '24
Do cougars (of the feline kind) even exist outside of the isolated population in the Everglades and those that live west of the Mississippi?
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u/JorikThePooh š¦ WILDLIFE BIOLOGIST š¦ Oct 30 '24
Not in breeding populations. Males occasionally disperse from the established populations in Nebraska and the dakotas, ending up as far as Connecticut one time. But officials usually know where they are by the time they hit the Midwest due to all the cameras and people. They almost always get hit by cars. All of this gives excuses for idiots to claim they saw a mountain lion every time a beefy bobcat or brownish coyote passes by.
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u/MasterWriterBlue Oct 30 '24
My fiancĆ©, the man of the mountain, says bobcat immediately. š He used to see them all the time in Tennessee where he lived, up on a mountain.
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u/G-dog121 Oct 30 '24
I remember seeing a Bobcat for the first time as a kid. I swore it was a mountain lion. Until, I saw a mountain lion
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u/aarakocra-druid Oct 30 '24
Bobcat! If you look closely you can see the outline of his little bobcat mutton chops
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u/LeeHeimer Oct 30 '24
Itās hilarious that these threads prove that the whole āmy stateās DNR has been lying about mountain lions existing hereā camp are almost exclusively people who really suck at identifying animals. This is clearly a bobcat, and anyone who has spent even a bit of time studying the differences between these two cats would make that determination quite easily for all of the reasons that have already been laid out.
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u/Rage40rder Oct 30 '24
If itās offering to buy you drinks and is wearing an outfit that wouldāve been more appropriate on them 20 years ago, then itās a cougar
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u/heckhunds Oct 30 '24 edited Oct 30 '24
Bobcat, I can see the striping on the forelegs. Proportions generally aren't right for mountain lion as well.
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u/mildlysceptical22 Oct 29 '24
Mountain lions have very noticeable tails. I donāt see one in this photo.
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u/PurpleNurple555 Oct 30 '24
Bobcat!! You can see the tufts on either side of his jaw, facial coloring and lack of tail :)
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u/Forward_Let_5101 Oct 30 '24
The tail is down and is seen over the animals rear hock and is obstructed by the canopy support but is visible barely behind it. The length of the body is longer than a bobcat or lynx. I say mountain lion.
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u/betatwinkle Oct 30 '24
I agree. I can see bits of the tail peeking through. Way too long to be a bobcat tail. That's a mountain lion.
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u/iamaredditboy Oct 30 '24
āStay away from itā cat I think
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u/aLonerDottieArebel Oct 30 '24
Lol, bobcats are fine. I have plenty in my backyard. The only thing thatās scares me is when they scream at night
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u/Extreme-Carrot6893 Oct 30 '24
I have a hard time believing thatās a bobcat despite what some people have said. Never seen a bobcat that size or colored like a mountain lion
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u/MonkeyScout29 Oct 30 '24
Iām a little late to this thread, but Iām confused by how many people are saying Bobcatā¦
This is very clearly a Cougar / Mountain lion, just google pictures of them and easily identify this is a Cougar.
Also, lived for several years in Montana for school, as a Bobcat myself I can guarantee that is not a Bobcat.
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u/eggosh šŖøš AQUATIC EXPERT š šŖø Oct 30 '24
Nah, this looks pretty typical for beefier bobcats in Massachusetts. As I said in another comment, the face and head to body proportions are wrong for a mountain lion. It only looks like it has bulky shoulders because it's prowling.
I linked some similar looking cats here.
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u/Straight-Donkey5017 Oct 30 '24
Awfully damn big bobcat. Most are only 16 to 24 inches at the shoulder.
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u/Raven-Velvet Oct 31 '24
I know it's a bobcat but it really looks like a lion to me not a mountain lion either
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u/FuTuReShOcKeD60 Oct 31 '24 edited Oct 31 '24
If it's a cougar, lock up all your teenage boys. This, however, is a Bob Cat. I saw one staring at me across a creek in the moon light. I was shocked to see how big they are. Pictures don't do it justice. Nice shot
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u/Chaos-and-control Oct 31 '24
Iām a trapper and trapped many a bobcat, thatās the beefiest bobcat I have probably ever seen, that shoulder hump alone goodnesssss, thatās a big old Tom
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u/bootymastr Oct 30 '24
This is the most blurry non-bobcat looking cougar I've ever seen. Huge cat, no spots, the colouring is all wrong for it to be a bobcat. Notice the posture as well, Bobcats don't have huge hulking shoulders like that.
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u/eggosh šŖøš AQUATIC EXPERT š šŖø Oct 30 '24
Its face and head to body proportions are all wrong for a mountain lion. The shoulders are just an illusion created by the way it's walking and it's smaller than it appears to be (common problem with trail cams). There are just some beefy looking bobs in Massachusetts.
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u/Gladiator1966 Oct 30 '24
German shepherd. I'm a German shepherd biologists, don't belive anyone else trust me .
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u/fattyflatty Oct 30 '24
That ain't no damn bobcat.....that is šÆ Cougar and not the 2 legged kind either!!!!
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u/milkchugger69 Oct 29 '24
Oh wow Iāve never seen one with that coloring. Not going to lie Iām not fully convinced that itās not a house cat
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u/Snack_Daddy_Nick Oct 30 '24
Definitely a cougar or mountain lion, as they get called. Bob cat looks more like a fancy cat with spots.
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u/Virtual-Ad5157 Oct 30 '24
Pitbull
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u/DrGoManGo Oct 31 '24
Fun fact. There have been 28 human fatalities involving cougars in the last 100 years.
There have been 40 Human Fatalities involving Pitbulls since August.
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u/ltfsufhrip Oct 30 '24
This is tricky IMO, but as others have said is definitely a bobcat. The smaller size, and lack of the tail are indicators. I originally thought cougar when I first viewed it, but with a more detailed look it is definitely a bobcat.
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u/JingleDjango13 š¦ WILDLIFE BIOLOGIST š¦ Oct 29 '24 edited Oct 31 '24
Hi, cougar biologist here. This is absolutely a bobcat, as others have already correctly identified. Donāt be swayed by those insisting itās a cougarā¦ there have been studies which show that the vast majority of people (75-90%) cannot correctly identify a mountain lion on a trail camera. Itās tricky sometimes, but this is very clearly a bobcat.
EDIT: people keep asking how to tell, so hereās the simplest answer. The size markers are the biggest indication (look for things like trees or bushes around it), but head shape, cheek tufts, leg patterns, stubby tail, and the way it moves all scream bobcat. Honestly though, a lot of this is just being able to recognize it quickly after spending hundreds of hours sorting through camera footage looking for mountain lions.