r/TrueChristian • u/Brilliant-Cicada-343 Christian • 7d ago
What is your view that Jesus was a “failed apocalyptic prophet”?
I don’t believe Jesus was a failed apocalyptic prophet because some of the things He’s accused of He(Jesus) will do at the end of the age, like the general resurrection of the dead.
I noticed over at r/AcademicBiblical there are a bunch of skeptical, non-Christian people who take the view that Jesus was a “failed apocalyptic prophet”, which made me cringe.
What are your thoughts on this accusation? Even for apologetic purposes.
6
u/StarLlght55 Christian (Original katholikos) 7d ago
They think themselves wise, but the wisdom of the Lord is foolishness for men. They read the same words you do and yet they do not hear them for what they are because they do not want to.
2 Corinthians 3:14-16 NASB1995 [14] But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. [15] But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; [16] but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
1
8
u/Secret-Jeweler-9460 Christian 7d ago
When dealing with people who only know Jesus through the writings and not through their having followed the teachings, being justified by faith and raised in spirit, you will quickly realize that these are speaking from a place of ignorance that falls under the category of if the blind lead the blind, they will both fall into a pit.
1
1
u/wooowoootrain 6d ago
you will quickly realize that these are speaking from a place of ignorance that falls under the category of if the blind lead the blind, they will both fall into a pit.
They, in contrast, will argue that they are speaking from a place of knowledge that falls under the category of the informed leading the informed, thus they both fall into a state of having well-evidenced conclusions.
3
u/Time_Child_ 7d ago
Well you’re asking this subreddit so I’d say the consensus is that they’re wrong.
2
u/Inevitable-Buddy8475 7d ago
This argument comes from a passage that says some of you will not die until the kingdom of God comes with all it's might. In other words, some of the apostles will still be alive when Jesus comes back. (Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27). Obviously, taking this at face value with absolutely no context and no hermeneutics whatsoever, it is a false prophecy. But there are several ways to get out of this.
First, are some of the apostles actually dead, or were they promised eternal life like every other Christian? (John 3:16)
Second, this could be interpreted as a conditional prophecy. That is to say "If X, Y, and Z happens within your lifetime, some of you will not die until the second coming." Conditions X, Y, and Z are simply the "signs of the times" that Jesus preaches about in Matthew 24.
Third, this could actually be in reference to the first coming. Remember what John the Baptist announced during Jesus's Baptism? "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!" However, I do think this option is the least likely, since Jesus speaks of his coming as one that happens in the future, and the first coming was obviously in the present from their perspective.
1
u/Accomplished-Try6107 7d ago
Yes, this is key.
Truth be told, when you read the New Testament, you get the impression that no Christian expected the year 100 AD wold ever come. Perhaps this is why there are so few Christian writings during this time. They were just living for the moment waiting for Jesus to return in their lifetime. And so as a reader of the New Testament, on the basis for Christ's second coming, it is very disheartening that he did not return before the year 100 AD.
However, on the basis of who Jesus is, what he has done, and all the eyewitness who testify all these things, it's hard not to believe that Jesus is indeed the Christ. For who else has ever suffered a long slow and painful death for the world to see, and then walks the area three days later as a healed person, and then has people traveling across the world to share this news, though it means much hardship for these followers of Jesus Christ.
So my faith in Christ is strengthened from the historical testimonies from the Bible, and not the hope from Jesus' second coming. ... If a man who rises from the grave says to wait for his return, then I'm going to wait.
2
u/samcro4eva Christian 7d ago
Are any of them actual academics in the relevant fields of study?
2
u/Brilliant-Cicada-343 Christian 7d ago edited 7d ago
I would guess some, the people over there seem well educated even if they are not scholars.
1
u/samcro4eva Christian 7d ago
It's a common belief, and one lacking evidence in context. They can seem educated, like Billy Carson, and still be wrong
2
u/Brilliant-Cicada-343 Christian 7d ago
Sure okay. Who is Billy Carson though?
2
u/samcro4eva Christian 6d ago
He claimed to be an expert in ancient documents. Wes Huff had a conversation with him that exposed him as a fraud
1
u/Brilliant-Cicada-343 Christian 6d ago
Good to know, how recent was this?
2
2
2
u/pwordddddddddd Roman Catholic 7d ago
Well, the world has gotten progressively shittier since 2001
1
2
2
u/FantasticLibrary9761 Baptist 7d ago
See, objections from prophesy bring out the nastiest part about Atheists, because no matter what you do, they will claw at any chance to degrade Christianity. They don’t want to believe, they hate christianity, and because of that, something as complex as prophesy will be abused by themes.
This, and some Daniel 9 prophecies tend to be the most common objections from prophesy.
2
u/Byzantium Christian 7d ago
See, objections from prophesy bring out the nastiest part about Atheists, because no matter what you do, they will claw at any chance to degrade Christianity.
I would say the same thing about some Christians that think that can make anything into a prophesy that says whatever they dream up.
Like finding a seven year tribulation, Antichrist, and the exact date of Jesus's death [or birth] in Daniel Chapter 9.
2
7d ago edited 7d ago
This is because of their failure to properly exogete Matthew 24. The first century Jewish scribes and Pharisees point at the temple and say “What will come of all this?” And Jesus tells them that before THAT generation passes away, at the end of that age (ion) the Son of Man will return in judgement upon Israel and the temple will be brought to destruction thus concluding the Judaic age and ushering in the New Covenant.
The people who say he’s a failed apocalyptic prophet understand the prophecy was to be fulfilled within 40 years of it being told, but they interpret the “end of the age” as the end of the physical cosmos, but the word in the Greek used here is “ion” which simply means age (covenantal age). Christ foretold the return of the Son of Man coming on the clouds IN JUDGEMENT upon the first century covenant breaking Jews, and it actually happened. The temple was destroyed in 70 AD and not one stone was left upon another just as Christ foretold.
If these people who believe Jesus is a failed apocalyptic prophet would actually do a little bit of research and try to figure out why he said what he said he did, and what does it mean? What actually happened within that generation? What does the Greek say here? Then maybe they’d actually understand that that prophecy was fulfilled just as Christ foretold. The prophecy was never apocalyptic to begin with. It was covenantal.
0
u/Brilliant-Cicada-343 Christian 7d ago
Jesus did not return in judgment in 70 AD, the Roman war against the Jews from 66-73 occurred from that age range but Jesus coming back in judgment has not.
Matthew 24:3 has the disciples asking a plural question since they presupposed that the destruction of the temple meant the end of the age, but it didn’t (see Matthew 25:31-46 and Matthew 13).
Jesus predicted the near future: (as Luke is the only one who records the signs of the destruction of the temple “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.” Luke 21:20)
And all three Synoptics predict Jesus’ arrival in judgment with bringing the actual kingdom of God: Luke 21:25-33
Jesus answered their “double question” and Matthew is the only one who records their double question:
“As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? {the Temples destruction} And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” {Jesus’ second coming in judgment} Matthew 24:3
0
7d ago edited 7d ago
I encourage you to ask yourself “who is Jesus talking to in this text? And what does he say” He’s telling them to their faces “Truly I say to you. All these thing will take place before THIS generation passes away.” (Within 40 years)
If he were talking about the second coming of Christ, he would have had to say “All these things will take place 2000 + years from now. You need to consider the context. Jesus isn’t talking to our faces about our generation. He’s talking to the first century covenant breakers of Israel. Your perspective gives people grounds to accuse him of being a false apocalyptic prophetic because he promised it would happen at a specific time and that time was before THAT generation passed away. PLEASE go to the text and consider what Jesus is saying, and to who.. You’re making Jesus look like a false prophet because Christ’s second coming obviously didn’t happen before that generation passed away.. and Christ promised his return.
0
u/Brilliant-Cicada-343 Christian 7d ago
I’ve read that text in all 3 Synoptics many times, I have studied it.
The likely hood of Jesus referring to His own generation is very unlikely, Jesus as a prophet was more likely referring to the end of the age, as He often spoke of it, when His angels would come forth and separate the wicked from the just, and throw them into a furnace of fire. (Matthew 13).
Edit: Jesus was predicting the near future and the far future.
0
7d ago
He was referring to the end of the covenantal age. This is where covenantal theology comes from. I encourage you to look into partial preterism and also different types of eschatology like post millennialism and Amillenialism. All you have to do is go to the text. He’s promising something would happen to the generation he’s speaking to. All it takes is to consider the context. Jeff Durbin has a great sermon series on this called “Kingdom of God” series. God bless you!
1
u/Brilliant-Cicada-343 Christian 7d ago
I’m a Historic Pre-millennialist, I don’t believe Preterism has any leg to stand on, but I don’t mind researching such topics.
I’m reading “A Case for Historic Premillennialism, An Alternative to “Left Behind” Eschatology” by Craig L. Blomberg & Sung Wook Chung” right now, amongst other books.
But I don’t think Amillenialism makes any sense either.
God bless, I hope you the best. ❤️
1
6d ago
Premill is the least biblical tbh. We can agree to disagree and still show eachother love. Take care brother and God bless!
1
u/simple-thoughts 7d ago
Prophesies aren't given a date. In otherwords, there can be large amounts of time between 2 points in a given prophesy. An example is where Jesus quotes Isaiah 61 1-2. He read "to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord" but stopped before the day of vengeance as He understood those were 2 completly separate times. We do not have His insight on prophesy, so we are unable to determine which points are near future vs far future at the time they were made. I would need to spend a bit of time to refresh myself on Matthew 24, but I do know part was referring specifically to the temple, and I also know part was said in the upper room. Will have to follow up further when I have some more time to sit down and look again
1
u/simple-thoughts 7d ago
That group is just a mess... Time hasn't ended yet, so no one can say Christ was a failed prophet...
2
u/Brilliant-Cicada-343 Christian 7d ago
Well. They say the messiah was predicted to do certain things, and Jesus didn’t fulfill them all. Of course, I disagree with them.
1
7d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Brilliant-Cicada-343 Christian 7d ago
I didn’t reply to them at all, I merely perused to a decent extent what they were all saying.
1
u/Equal-Forever-3167 Christian 7d ago
My thoughts are that they are probably Jewish or are valuing Jewish thought on the matter.
1
u/Arc_the_lad Christian 7d ago
What is your view that Jesus was a “failed apocalyptic prophet”?
My view is that the only people who say that are those who have never read the Bible or people who did read it and just don't care what it says because they've already decided whatever they believe is unassailable even if the Bible contradicts it.
I noticed over at r/AcademicBiblical there are a bunch of skeptical, non-Christian people who take the view that Jesus was a “failed apocalyptic prophet”, which made me cringe.
What are your thoughts on this accusation? Even for apologetic purposes.
Anyone can start calling themselves a Bible scholar or academic or create a a sub and say it's for academics to disciss Christian theology. There's no test or certification. They don't have to even have ever cracked open a Bible. They don't even have to be a Christian at all. The just need enough audacity to tell others they're an academic/scholar.
Having a Youtube channel doesn't make anyone a scholar. Neither does having a website or self-publishing a book or telling people you've been annointed/chosen/appointed by God. However, those are the type of credentials people point to as proof their guy is legit.
You know how real scholars and academics spend their time? Teaching college, studying, writing papers for peer review, publishing works in the journals respected by their field, doing research and fundraising for their projects. You know what they don't do? Hang out on Reddit to argue with strangers over positions that have long been put to bed by real academically certified scholars.
The churches has had a long history of posers pretending to have the inside scoop on Christianity infiltrating the church and leading people astray. The type of "academics" you mentioned are just the latest in a long line of false teachers.
Matthew 7:15-16 (KJV) 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (KJV) 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
1 Timothy 4:1-2 (KJV) 1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Acts 8:9-10 (KJV) 9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
2
u/edistthebestcat 7d ago
Personal attacks don’t refute their argument. Posts on that sub have to reference an academic source “real scholars and academics“ i.e. people who teach college, study and write papers for peer review as you describe them. Many of the frequent commenters were at one time evangelicals and know both the academic and confessional arguments inside and out. To dismiss them as people who have never read the Bible or don’t care what it says because they already decided is simply untrue because they made a decision to accept it and believe then another decision after they studied it further. If one doesn’t like it or agree that’s that’s okay but attacking their character is unfair.
1
u/Arc_the_lad Christian 7d ago
If you like those subs, I'm not here to stop you from going to them. Their fruits speak for themselves.
0
u/Pilgram_here Christian 7d ago
There are many spirits trying to plant and water seeds of doubt in true Christians they will grow up to bare bad fruit this is why Jesus cursed the fig tree. We must rebuke the enemy’s lies and cures seeds of doubt and fear to the root. I felt weird after watching Billy Carson and had weird questions in my head I asked the lord what’s going on than immediately felt in my spirit warfare mindset, and I cast away and delivered myself from all the curses that came through that false teaching narrative. We must take command and authority over the devil’s tricks resist him and he will flee. To answer the question nothing Jesus has ever done will ever do will ever be false. He is God he is perfect.
1
u/Brilliant-Cicada-343 Christian 7d ago
And to that I agree, but in terms of delineating lines of evidence in favor of Jesus’ teaching in order to be able to give a proper response is important.
2
u/Pilgram_here Christian 6d ago
Understood. That’s beyond my pay grade but I know Dr Michael Brown who has a website and chat and podcast called AskDrBrown is an expert. He is a Hebrew scholar and apologetic as a Jew for Christ he spends his efforts understanding and defending in detail such topics id give him a shot for full understanding god bless brother keep up the good fight in defense of the truth
2
8
u/ThatMilkDudeAgain Christian 7d ago
I think that's just wrong lol
What's their evidence for that statement?