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u/WildWestScientist 6d ago
I couldn't imagine hanging political messaging up in my living space. Feels far too ideological and Jong-Il-esque to put up visible affirmations. I don't disagree with the messaging, but I don't need it as a devotion and I don't feel the need to present it to my guests.
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u/Nickools Minarchist 6d ago
Yeah I get the same feeling about the worship of Milieu that I see in this sub, yeah he's doing great things but I'm not going to adore any politician.
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u/rtrs_bastiat 6d ago
We believe? Awfully collectivist. Are you dictating your family's thoughts?
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u/submit_to_pewdiepie 5d ago
A family is a union of people under one roof for common betterment and joy it doesn't contain individuals
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u/abyssal_banana Voting isn't a Right 4d ago
Yup. I want my family to be free thinkers. Subscribe ti my religion, or don’t, share similar thoughts, or not. Be a good person, treat others with kindness, and be able to argue why you believe what you do.
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u/Upbeat-Storage9349 6d ago
Explain the democracy bit, I don't know much about Libertarianism so don't know how it would actually work in a functioning society.
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u/cambat2 Ron Paul Libertarian 6d ago
2 wolves and 1 sheep vote on what to eat for dinner
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u/ItzDrSeuss Conservative 6d ago
I agree. What’s the alternative?
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u/ConscientiousPath 5d ago
for me it's less about implementing some alternative and more about not deifying something in cases where it doesn't work. Just changing the mindset of worshiping democracy would be helpful in refocusing people on what should be instead of protecting the status quo.
Having a set of constitutional rights helps buffer democracy, but constitutions can be flawed. Having governance be as local as possible also helps by minimizing the distance you have to travel to leave a bad jurisdiction.
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u/Nickools Minarchist 6d ago
Sortition could be a great alternative, if done right it can eliminate all the politics from governance. You create a citizen's assembly when you need an issue resolved and dissolve it after.
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u/dkc2405 5d ago
i totally agree, my husband asked how you think we'd be able to have a national defense/military that's strong enough to keep us from being invaded without the fed, i can't come up with anything and i'm really curious to hear your thoughts!
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u/Nickools Minarchist 5d ago
I'm not really a libertarian, I'm barely a minarchist, I just like hanging out in this sub for the discussion.
I guess the libertarian view is you don't need an army, you just recruit a militia when you are invaded to fight them off like the Americans did during the war of independence. That's what Iraq and Afghanistan did against the Americans during the recent middle eastern wars, they used gorilla warfare to take away the Americans military advantage. Those tactics stopped an American victory but it created a hellhole of a country for almost 2 decades, I think as a citizen of prefer deterrence instead.
A minarchist would probably say that national defence is one of the few functions we should keep for the government but you should deregulate the arms industry and the government should only buy weapons systems off companies instead of signing development and procurement contracts with companies. It means the private companies then take on the r&d risk of new weapons systems.
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u/ZombieTesticle 6d ago
Do they not teach the differences between democratic forms of government and direct democracy in schools anymore?
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u/Jcbm52 6d ago
Liberalism (in the classical, JS Mill way) can be defined as a political movement that advocates for the limitation of what the power the State can have over our lives, that's why all modern democracies are called "liberal democracies", because not everything is allowed even if people vote for it. Libertarianism takes this further, it negates all (or most) legitimacy in the action of a State. This means that libertarians advocate for no (or very limited) democracy, because NO action of the state is legitimate, and must therefore not exist, no matter how many people want it. Each libertarian is different, but they all agree that the power of the State is not legitimate (up to a certain point, and even then they don't usually believe in social contracts, blind choice analogy, etc. and other "bullshit", and it is out of pure pragmatism), and that includes not legitimating democracy.
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u/Upbeat-Storage9349 6d ago
Thanks for the explanation, it's not a concept I'm too familiar with otherwise. I'm from Europe and the impression I get is Libertarian (where people would label themselves) politics tends to be bundled more with social conservatism.
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u/Jcbm52 6d ago
I'm from Europe too, and yeah it is very common to see conservative people calling themselves libertarians just because they want lower taxes, but are actually conservative socio democrats. If you are interested in libertarianism, I think On Liberty by JS Mill is a short (although a bit repetitive) read that can introduce you to classical liberalism, a must to understand if you want to learn about libertarianism. Then, I can't tell you any good libertarian reads because there are just so many guys and the books they write are so thick, but so far what I have read about Huemer's "the problem with political authority" is pretty good, although heavy.
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u/TotalWarrior13 Right Libertarian 6d ago
Democracy is a means to an end, not an end in itself. The end is to protect the rights of the individual. Unless there are very strong constitutional protections, democracy can become destructive of individual rights and counter to the purpose of democracy.
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u/TheFortnutter 5d ago
The government destroys your lawn and you get to vote on how to fix it.
As smirky as this reply is, democracy isn’t a god. It’s just the rule of the majority. You should need someone to vote on how much of your money they get to spend, etc. you own yourself.
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u/Inkiness1 End Democracy 6d ago
democracy is the tyranny of a majority, and the 51 percent can remove the rights of the 49 percent, in a monarchy, it is far harder for a 1 percent to oppress a 99 percent
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u/ashoruns 6d ago
Lmao open the schools
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u/Inkiness1 End Democracy 6d ago
now that i read what i said that was a fucking terrible analogy, but democracy is still extremely unfair, you still deserve rights even if your not the majority
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u/snowyflynfish Libertarian 6d ago
I have seen this sentiment around this sub a little bit, and I really don’t get it. How could any libertarian possibly advocate for a monarchy? Every monarchy that has ever existed has been in stark contrast to libertarian values. The only countries that have cared about individual liberties have all been democracies.
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u/Inkiness1 End Democracy 6d ago
a democracy is better than a absolute monarchy 100%, but democracy is still not good
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u/TheMadManiac 6d ago edited 6d ago
Bro what? Every single monarchy has oppressed its people. You sound like those commies who say real communism hasn't been done yet so we can't judge
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u/Inkiness1 End Democracy 6d ago
monarchism sucks, i would rather have a constitutional monarchy then a liberal democracy tho
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u/EarlBeforeSwine Voluntaryist 6d ago
If by monarchy, you mean that the individual is sovereign, then you are dead on. Every man a king. But if you mean an actual monarchy, you need to get your head checked.
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u/Inkiness1 End Democracy 6d ago
idk why i worded my original statement like that. democracy only gives rights to a majority not everyone, and monarchy doesn't fix that
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u/slamdunktiger86 6d ago
Part of maturity is not being like your enemy. 💩
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u/Inkiness1 End Democracy 6d ago
the left isnt my "enemy" i disagree with them but i dont have a personally dislike for them. commies, on the other hand
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u/14bees Minarchist 6d ago
End democracy? Who else is gonna assign our leaders? The state??? Inheritance?
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u/helloiisjason 6d ago
We should just be living amongst nature, eating berries and living off the land. Fuck credit scores and 9-5s. End democracy taxation and socialism!
So let's all quit our jobs and move to the forest!! We can maybe get a village going and have different people grow different things and put it in a community food bank. That way everyone is taken care of.
But we will still maybe need a leader so we will have to pick one out of the community.
But then, we should set up a system where we reward people for doing tasks, like fixing my toilet. And that reward everyone gets for tasks, maybe we can take some of it from each person and use that to help build and maintain the community? And maybe pay our leader a little bit since he makes decisions that we can vote on.
Yea! Down with the system!
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u/Inevitable-Plantain5 6d ago
So I guess the idea is that in practice democracy always ends up being the majority imposing their will on the minority instead of people willingly participating in agreed upons rules with the option to change their mind at any point?
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u/sleepnandhiken 6d ago
Always? Half the time the minority gets their guy in. A lot of instances are from pro minority map drawing for representatives in both state and federal levels.
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u/Inevitable-Plantain5 6d ago
I get that in practice things dont always go as planned. The truth is power corrupts in any system which is why pushing for minimizing the power of centralized power is important but there will always be groups fighting for centralized power too that will need to be fought. And thus the fight for freedom is never ceasing since the desire for power never ceases.
That being said, I think the idea of democracy does not in itself require trading of freedoms. A democracy filled with libertarians would focus on collective options without forcing options which wouldn't be majority forcing minority since there is the option to opt out. Realistically, there isn't a system yet with only Libertarians in a democracy though so...
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u/sleepnandhiken 6d ago
So you want a more ballot initiatives? That’s possible in the status quo.
Look I was really only after the one line: “Tyranny of the majority.” Fun to say I guess but there’s to many counter examples for it to actually be true.
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u/Inevitable-Plantain5 6d ago
Ballots can still lead to tyranny of the majority. I think the issue is people forget how bad things can get and allow governments to create reoccurring issues with abusing centralized power. We need to keep reminding people how close we are by nature to falling into fascism.
The human species beat other apes bykilling all other species of hominids. Exploiting in group vs out group dynamics is in our blood so we have to basically use wisdom regarding our past to lead us to keep fighting our nature.
I dont think democracy is the problem though. I think human nature is the problem. Libertarianism for me addresses the reality of human nature and the inevitable problems centralized power creates.
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u/sleepnandhiken 6d ago
“If only everyone else agreed with my view!”
Look, libertarians have been doing worse in the polls and this sub died off hard. I’d say things like “privatize all roads” contributes to this. Whatever it is you are moving further from your goal if the goal is more people being libertarian.
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u/Inevitable-Plantain5 6d ago
I guess I just think we should push principles instead of labels. Democracies as a labeled are different from democracy as principles. I dont need people to label themselves Libertarians but I want to encourage people to value their freedoms or at least not limit other people's freedoms just because they don't appreciate freedom personally.
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u/sleepnandhiken 6d ago
Principals have been pushed. The problem is that yall purity tested yourselves into being anarchists. It’s not that people don’t understand those principles; it’s that they disagree with them.
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u/Inevitable-Plantain5 6d ago
I dont think im one of those anarchists nor am I a purity test type. That's why I was initially confused over the democracy thing. I think personal freedoms and democracy can go together but when democracy limits God given freedoms then we need at least to push back.
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u/sleepnandhiken 5d ago
God given freedoms is a whole mess of things. God actually says you can’t do things that plenty of others think you should be able to. The Puritans got kicked out of Europe for being too uptight and yet they are making a come back.
It’s those lib states that tend to rank higher on personal freedoms. Not a perfectly clear line fo shure but there is a correlation to religiosity.
Sidetracked there. Lets try a different angle. What personal freedom do you not have or want or are realistically afraid of losing.
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u/randomamericanofc Conservative 6d ago
What did OP say to get downvoted so hard
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u/Inkiness1 End Democracy 6d ago
i was trying to explain why democracy is bad and ended up saying that monarchy is good, which is not what i mean
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u/lokimarkus 5d ago
I hate these signs... They're so fucking preachy
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u/DrElvisHChrist0 Voluntaryist 4d ago
I hate anything political. It's all culty shit to me. One reason I'm libertarian is because I'm antipolitical.
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u/Sea_Journalist_3615 Government is a con. 6d ago edited 5d ago
The con is government. I can govern myself. I don't need to be governed by others.
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u/ConscientiousPath 5d ago
lol the original lefty version is all over the place around my house. this is so much better
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u/djhazmatt503 5d ago
The one I have says
I BELIEVE IN A THING CALLED LOVE
JUST LISTEN TO THE RHYTHM OF MY HEART
THERE'S A CHANCE WE COULD MAKE IT NOW
WE'LL BE ROCKING TIL THE SUN COMES DOWN
pretty sure none of my neighbors have noticed, matched the colors and the font
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u/FairwayBliss 4d ago
I want to hang it in my classroom, but I don’t think I will be employed much longer if I do.
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u/Inkiness1 End Democracy 4d ago
but if you hang the original sign you will be fine, seems fair to me
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u/DrElvisHChrist0 Voluntaryist 6d ago
I don't need political crap littering my life.