r/Frugal • u/Narrow-Air-3425 • Aug 23 '24
Cost analysis on hybrid vs gas cars (Gas seems to win) š Auto
I've been debating whether to buy a used hybrid or standard Toyota Rav 4 both 2023 models with around 30,000 miles. Here is my cost analysis for anyone else that was wondering. Also let me know if there's anything I'm missing in this calculation.
Average MPG (city/freeway):
- Standard: 31
- Hybrid: 39.5
10 year cost savings hybrid vs standard assuming $4/gal, 10 year life, 15,000 miles/year, 55% city driving: $4,160 (used https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/savemoney.jsp)
Dealer Sticker Price:
Standard: $27,000
Hybrid: $31,000
Assuming 20% down; 4 year loan; 5% interest; $4,000 trade in value
Total cost which includes: interest paid over life of loan, sales tax & title/reg fees
Standard: $32,146
Hybrid: $37,000
Difference in total cost = $4,854 which is more than the 10 year cost savings
The cost savings over takes the total cost at year 12. So unless you are planning on driving the car for 12 years, the savings doesn't seem to make much sense.
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u/That1one1dude1 Aug 23 '24
Maybe itās a minor thing but I love my 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid just for how little I have to actually stop at the gas station. It gets about 650 miles per tank fill up, 17 gallon tank.
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u/joe2352 Aug 24 '24
I have a 13 fusion hybrid in a small town. If Iām just going to work and back and the store I can get by on $10 a month in gas.
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u/ChaserNeverRests Aug 24 '24
I work from home, don't make long trips. I have to stop for gas every 3-4 months. That's filling up with gas 3-4 times a year!
I'd never ever ever go back to a gas vehicle. I'm not sure I'd go full electric, but I love my Prius.
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u/DIYtowardsFI Aug 24 '24
Hybrids are great, but donāt discount the extra satisfaction of driving fully electric! We have both a plug in electric hybrid Prius and electric car. For 3 years my husband drove the Prius and I drove the EV. I didnāt stop at a gas station for years, it was amazing! Always waking up to a full charge is so satisfying, and it cost me less than $20/mo to commute 60 miles a day. Whenever I didnāt need to go to work, my husband would jump at the opportunity to drive the EV. When itās time to replace the Prius (which will be in a long time, theyāre well built!) it will be with a second EV for sure.
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u/ChaserNeverRests Aug 24 '24
Good point! And now that I finally own my own home, I could get a charger installed.
I'll consider it when it's time to replace (hopefully not for a long, long time).
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u/SNsilver Aug 24 '24
I have a Hyundai Ioniq PHEV and we fill up maybe every two months. Charge on 120V at home and donāt bother with public charging. Not filling up 4x as often as the hybrid option is worth the extra cost alone, though after tax credits it as cheaper than the hybrid option
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u/Kyo46 Aug 23 '24
You have a $4k price difference between the two vehicles, which isn't always the case anymore, either. For example, the difference in MSRP between a Toyota Corolla and Toyota Corolla Hybrid is just $1,500 nowadays. The RAV4 has a roughly $3k difference.
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u/Two_shirt_Jerry Aug 24 '24
In Canada the Hyundai Santa Fe comes standard as a hybrid and higher models are a turbo gas engine. The maverick used to be like this as well
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u/PinkMonorail Aug 23 '24
We have a Toyota Prius. Itās our second one. The first one was a 2001 that we traded in, still working great, in 2022 for a 2017 model, which was $21k before refinancing at our credit union. We expect to keep it 20 years. It gets better gas mileage than our second choice, a Corolla.
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u/FatLeeAdama2 Aug 23 '24
My only issue with using miles is it negates the traffic idling.
A lot of my coworkers travel ~20 miles to work but their commute is 45-60 minutes (or more during accidents and bad weather) each way.
Your math ignores all of those idle minutes where gas is spent. Thatās while hybrids typically have better city mpg than highway mpg.
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Aug 24 '24
[deleted]
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u/c0LdFir3 Aug 24 '24
Just because youāre in traffic doesnāt mean you are stopped, though. Sure, my Subaru kills the engine at a light. My Corolla Hybrid doesnāt kick it on unless Iām going over 30mph or so, though. When crawling in stop and go traffic, Iāve had the engine off for extraordinary lengths of time that wouldnāt be possible with an ICE.
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u/PF_Questions_Acc Aug 24 '24
Most cars that do this have a separate starter that is optimized for a high number of cycles. It drives me nuts that people always repeat this and don't question why the engineers wouldn't have thought of that.
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u/jwillgoesfast Aug 23 '24
Iām not saying itās a generally bad idea, but itās not frugal to buy any brand new car. Also, we are not paying the actual cost of fuel at the pump, itās heavily subsidized, so your analysis does make some financial sense. I drive a $14k EV and save over $1k per year in fuel and maintenance expenses and I will still have a full battery warranty for another 3 years.
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u/crazy_akes Aug 23 '24
And your insurance costs are usually far higher in EVās. What EV did you get for 14kā¦year and model? And still have 3 year battery left? Carvana has 60,000 vehicles for sale. They have 7. Yes..7 EVās under 15k available right now and all are 2015 or older with no warranty left. Youāre either the extreme outlier or full of it but Iād love to know more!! Just doesnāt seem cost effective to me and Iād like to have my mind changed.
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u/EVDogo Aug 23 '24
Iāve been looking into getting an EV. This is what Iāve found so far.
Thereās up to $4k federal tax incentive for used EVās right now. If buying from a dealer they should be able to reduce the price at time of purchase instead of claiming it at tax time.
Chevy Bolts had a battery recall and have been replaced and theyāre extending the warranty based on when it was replaced. You can use the vin to search when it was replaced and how long the warranty is good for.
The quote I got from GEICO to go from my current 2020 gas car to a 2020 Bolt was actually $80 cheaper for the same coverage.
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u/Jamikest Aug 23 '24
My EV is under $500 for 6 months full coverage (and beyond the normal "full coverage" due to umbrella policy).
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u/The-Fox-Says Aug 23 '24
Which EV?
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u/Jamikest Aug 24 '24
I've a Nissan (sold it) and now a Kia. The Nissan was around 400ish for 6 months.
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u/Chemical_Training808 Aug 23 '24
Insurance is more, state tags are more (in my state at least), and batteries are super heavy and generally wear out your tires faster. Sure you save on $50 oil changes but Iām not a fan of EVs unless youāre charging for free at work
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u/Balthanon Aug 23 '24
Insurance quotes that I got for EVs weren't significantly more when I was shopping around. (Significantly more than I was paying, but I was driving around a 15+ year old car.) State tags are significantly higher though.
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u/Environmental-Sock52 Aug 23 '24
I'm just here to say I get 33mpg on the highway in my 2016 standard Rav4. Love the thing.
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u/Witty-Performance-23 Aug 23 '24
I got my 2023 gas (not hybrid) corolla new (before people say Iām an idiot that was during the used car prices crisis) and it gets 50mpg on the freeway, no joke. Iām keeping this thing for 10+ years.
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u/Environmental-Sock52 Aug 23 '24
Nice! It's funny I had a Corolla years ago and had a good experience, and recently drove a newer one, after aging and getting used to the Rav4, it was a little hard for me to get in and out of. That probably says more about me than the car though. š
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u/IDonTGetitNoReally Aug 23 '24
I have a feeling that youāre not going to like what I have to say.
I used to have a 2013 Honda Fit. Definitely got 33 mpg highway miles when I traveled for work. When I wasnāt traveling, this thing cost me more in gas than I thought it would. I think it was maybe 10 mpg.
Then I got my 2016 Rav4. Again, highway miles was great, but city mileage is horrible. Like my old Honda Fit, itās like 10 mpg. I donāt travel for work anymore so have to deal with non highway mileage.
I love my Rav4. But it sucks ass on gas savings.
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u/Environmental-Sock52 Aug 23 '24
I'd get that checked out. I'm getting 23 mpg driving around town consistently.
10 mpg was what I was getting with my Ford Explorer, and 14 on the highway! š
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u/Artistic-Salary1738 Aug 23 '24
Iām guessing the difference will be length of trips.
I went from driving an expedition around town at 10mph, to a volvo sedan, ford fusion and another volvo suv all 3 of which consistently got 12-14mpg cause I was driving a few miles at one max. The same cars would get around 21 when I used to have a 20min + commute. Highway mileage gap was way bigger.
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u/Environmental-Sock52 Aug 23 '24
I guess I could see that if it was literally 2-3 miles per trip and/or you're sitting in tons of traffic.
But I'm getting ~23mpg on local streets whether I'm driving in Vegas or around So Cal. I'd estimate my average trip in and around town is about 10 miles? Most times anyway.
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u/IDonTGetitNoReally Aug 23 '24
I have had it checked out and it's fine.
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u/Environmental-Sock52 Aug 23 '24 edited Aug 23 '24
I'd turn mine in if I was getting that.
Unless you're absolutely sitting in traffic that can't be right. I live in So Cal and I'm getting more than double what you're getting on the streets so something isn't right with your car.
I have a 2016 Toyota RAV4 XLE made in Japan just for information and comparison sake.
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u/LLR1960 Aug 23 '24
We have a 2017 Rav4. We usually get around low 20's in mpg in city driving, and that's not trying to conserve gas. Something is off here; I'd be asking a mechanic about that mileage.
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Aug 23 '24 edited Aug 23 '24
The difference is less than $1k (after gas savings). One caveat is I assume gas prices will go up in my future projections. As we all use less. No company takes kindly to losing revenue. We have VERY cheap gas in the US and are very spoiled by it. I don't expect this to last forever.
I think most of us consider it AT LEAST break even because there is some kind of unknown $ benefit to the environment thru less pollution and sticking it slightly to the gas man to help reduce the oil/gas monopoly/dependency. And slowly making it more acceptable culturally to drive these smaller lighter anti gas guzzler hippie-ish socially conscious type of cars.
As they say. Your mileage may vary š But that is a good enough tradeoff to put me over the hump. I can at least "feel" like I am doing something to help my kids future slightly.
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u/shostakofiev Aug 23 '24
31 mpg is already very efficient. An easier way to think of it is that you will save about 8 gallons of gas per month, using your numbers. You can use that to guage if it's worth the higher car payment.
Hybrids make more sense when it gets you from 22 to 39 mpg. In that case you are saving 25 gallons per month. You are also cutting trips to the gas station almost in half, which might be a significant convenience. And the math may be neutral at $4/gallon, but you are protecting yourself if gas gets up to $6 or more.
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u/randynumbergenerator Aug 24 '24
The protection from gas price increases was a major motivation for me when I bought my hybrid ten years ago. Gas prices absolutely collapsed about a year later. But I've had zero regrets, because any news about gas prices increasing or decreasing basically translates to maybe $10 per month difference for me.Ā
On top of that, wear and tear on the engine, brake pads, spark plugs, etc. has been way below my experience with other cars. I think people really tend to underestimate the cost of repairs and maintenance, though if you're leasing a new vehicle every few years perhaps that's less of a concern (though also not very frugal).
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u/mpaes98 Aug 24 '24
Exactly. People assume that gas will stay the same price. It wont. Just 3 years ago it was about 1.75 cheaper than now at my local Costco for premium (price fluctuates pretty wildy there though). And if I don't have time (or it's not worth the trip just for gas) to make it to make it to Costco? Some of the stations near me can be $2 pricier.
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u/randynumbergenerator Aug 25 '24
Yeah,Ā peace of mind is worth something. At most, when prices increase it's an annoyance for me, not a significant hit to my budget.
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u/DrewforPres Aug 23 '24
Youāre wrong to assume cost Iām of gas to be constant over ten years
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u/Oldcadillac Aug 24 '24
I came here to say this, thereās no reason to not at least price in some guess for inflation at least.
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Aug 24 '24
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u/sine-wave Aug 24 '24
Hoosier neighbor here, ours is $74 for hybrids and just went up to $224 for my new (to me) EV!
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u/lunlope Aug 23 '24
Interesting.
So even if someone paid cash for brand new, you have to use it for a decade to make it worth the saving.
I think I would be fine with used Hybrid then.
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u/Authentic_Jester Aug 23 '24
The cost savings over takes the total cost at year 12. So unless you are planning on driving the car for 12 years, the savings doesn't seem to make much sense.
Any car worth owning is one I'll be driving for 10 years, what does this even mean? Plus, if you're a leasee the problems with hybrids won't be an issue because you won't own the car that long anyways. Makes no sense. Toyota Rav4 is an excellent choice though, one of the best consumer vehicles on the market. If you can afford the up-front cost, I'd 100% always recommend hybrid unless you're a niche outlier (off-road camping/fishing, etc.). I'll say too, dealerships will offer more for a hybrid than a normal car on trade because the demand is higher. Rav4 is an SUV, so the gas savings isn't as huge as it would be on a Camry, Corolla, or Prius. (Prius averages like 49 mp/gallon?) My two cents as a former Toyota employee. š
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u/Narrow-Air-3425 Aug 23 '24
I would think taking into account length of time of ownership is an important factor. The average American only keeps their car for 8 years. Keeping the car longer can affect the cost savings by adding more years of gas savings. I personally keep my cars longer than average. Our old highlander has 250,000 miles on it (never has any issues, the things a tank). I also don't see any benefit (financially) to leasing unless you are able to write off the lease payments as a business owner.
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u/steelfork Aug 23 '24
Depreciation is the biggest cost of ownership and you leave that out. I think it's likely that hybrids do not depreciate as quickly as standard gas vehicles.
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u/Wi_PackFan_1985 Aug 23 '24
I wouldn't bank on that at this point (Car Dealer Here). There is so much flux with the market and depending on the battery warranty used hybrids are severely depreciated in later life (over 7 years old) because the batteries are so expensive.
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u/Quixlequaxle Aug 23 '24
Do you have a source on this? People tend to be pretty hesitant to buy used hybrids, especially as they get to the 7-10 year mark and the cost to replace the battery exceeds the value of the car.
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u/obscurityknocks Aug 23 '24
Those batteries are so expensive to replace. I wouldn't buy a used hybrid and for that very reason I wouldn't buy one new because I don't want to have to try to sell something I know will cost anywhere from $3k to 10K to replace a battery.
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u/killian1113 Aug 24 '24 edited Aug 24 '24
1600 installed to replace with 3 year warranty I'm torn on a hybrid. Very slow but will yield double city miles and 15 more highway miles. We drive more than 15k a year since we are not sticks in the mud and enjoy vacations. I.guess I would say we drive 40k a year but not sure. Driving to Canada or yellowstone was 1000 miles each way. Gas prices are 4+in summer and 3aomething in winters. Idk if I should buy lexus CT 200h or not. 12k for 110k miles 2018.. gets 380 miles from 8 gallons of gas. Compare that to 32 mpg Is 20$ less per 380 miles. If only driving 15k a year it would be saving 780$ a year. I can get 28mpg around town in a accord 2016 and 38 on the highway, and it's a bigger, more spacious car purchased for 13k with 10k miles back in 2016 now having 160k miles.. I hate decisions ;) funny people talking about break pads wow cost 100$ amd get lifetime autozone pads cha ge yourself maybe 2x I. 160k miles. Uhh
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u/MiserablePool6049 Aug 23 '24
The Ford Maverick was an exception to this when it came out in 2020. Standard engine was the hybrid and it was $19,995. Prices have since gone up of course but I think the hybrid is standard on it again for 2025.
Even after they changed prices, the hybrid was just around $1500 more than the gas model so still a good buy. Of course, itās not the vehicle for everyone and itās Ford quality instead of Toyota. Iāve been enjoying mine so far and loving the fuel economy/savings Iāve been getting.
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u/Show-Keen Aug 23 '24
I want you to know something: Iāve been driving a Prius for about 4 years. What I gain on gas mileage and $$ savings, I lose on insurance. Insurance on Hybrids are close to $75/month more expensive than a regular Camry/Corolla.
I donāt regret driving a Prius; in the end, it all amounts to the same thing.
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u/anal_astronaut Aug 23 '24
In CA (at least...) warranty on the Hybrid is 10 years 150k for the powertrain compared to 5 years / 60k.
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u/AwsiDooger Aug 24 '24
Also, hybrid cars outperform the mileage estimates given sensible driving, and the cost to replace the battery is much lower than the fear-based numbers that are always thrown around. Cells can be refurbished instead of replacing the entire battery.
Beyond anything, hybrid car owners always have the highest satisfaction rate. And it's not even close. Every time I check the numbers it's above 80% for hybrids and roughly 70% for gas, with electric vehicles in between.
Those are mammoth sample size.
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u/BrianLevre Aug 24 '24 edited Aug 24 '24
I got a 2021Prius (not a plug in) for 24 grand in April with 44,000 miles on it. It can fit tons of stuff in it, looks awesome, and has gotten between 57 and 64 mpg over the 16,000 miles I've put on it (driving it every other week).
You need to look at a different hybrid if you want to see if you'll save money vs gas. You can improve efficiency by 9 mpg just by getting a different used gas car and not having to get a hybrid.
Really though, you need to drive a lot to realize savings. I'm driving 70-80,000 miles a year as a courier and if I was only going to see 9 mpg improvement between cars at the 31 and 39.5 you listed, it's only 1700-1800 dollars of savings in a year at 3 dollars a gallon... driving 80,000 miles a year.
Most people drive much, much less than that.
You almost never save money by getting into a different car for fuel savings unless you start with 10-15 mpg and go to 35-45 mpg.
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u/rather_be_redditing Aug 24 '24
Factor in resale value. If itās 4k more expensive but sells for 4k more in 10 years then it was free.
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u/TrynHawaiian Aug 24 '24
I got a 2022 Maverick XLT at 26k, thatās including extras. I get 43 MPG and it adds up a lot. Very happy with my purchase and firmly in the hybrid truck club.
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u/wiskinator Aug 24 '24
One benefit to hybrids you may not have considered. I put almost 300,000 miles on my gen 2 Prius before we sold it. The original brake pads and rotors were still above 50% lifetime left because the hybrid system does 90% of the braking. Not a hugely expensive repair but one would normally do pads and rotors at around 75k miles, so I should have had to do them almost 4 times.
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u/newmanm6 Aug 24 '24
I feel like 10 years is less than most people hope for. Ideally 15 years or so gives you even more years where those savings end up mattering more
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u/Proper-Obligation-84 Aug 24 '24
Your title is misleading if youāre just talking about Toyotas and declaring gas the winner
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u/Mother_Knows_Best-22 Aug 23 '24 edited Aug 23 '24
Well of course they have made it pricier to drive a hybrid or an EV because the major oil companies still own freaking everybody. I've had a hybrid for more than 10 years and I love it. I don't drive much and fill up once a month if that. No mechanical issues at all.
EDIT: Thanks for the down vote. Reporting facts is always unpopular.
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u/kstorm88 Aug 23 '24
I drive a Chevy volt. It's paid for itself in fuel savings alone in 6 years, all along with near zero maintenance.
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u/reddit18015 Aug 23 '24
I love my hybrid as well. Go back and forth from Philadelphia to Ottawa a lot and love saving money at the pump. Maintenance wise, I do it all myself.
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u/___Dan___ Aug 23 '24
āThe major oil companies still own freaking everybodyā - this is a highly editorialized opinionated statement, not fact. You deserve the downvotes
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u/chihuahuassuck Aug 23 '24
If you want to save money buy something that isn't an SUV regardless of electric or not. It's better for your wallet and society as a whole.
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u/Traditional-Chard419 Aug 24 '24
With a young family, RAV4 is the smallest we can go as a family vehicle.
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u/sine-wave Aug 24 '24
There is more to a hybrid than just fuel savings.
- Regen braking means fewer brake replacements
- less frequent oil changesĀ
- lower emissions
- pre-cool car / sit in traffic / āidleā without running engine
- less time spent at gas stations (time is money)
The last one would be even greater with a plug-in hybrid where some trips will never use any gas. A common problem with the Chevy Volt was the fuel getting stale before it was needed!
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u/PersonalBrowser Aug 24 '24
May make sense for your specific use case, but having a hybrid has helped me come out way ahead.
I have a Honda Insight getting 45 mpg vs comparable Civic getting 35 mpg. It cost me about $3k more, but Iāve already made my money back after less than 5 years.
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u/PessimisticProphet Aug 23 '24
Cheap gas car until you have a house with solar panels and then you go huge rebate below cost ev.
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u/PurpleSausage77 Aug 23 '24
I average 40mpg in my 3rd gen Mazda3 without trying. Paid $5k for the car in April2022 when it had 155k miles. Cheap insurance, and cheap/easy to DIY maintenance, has needed nothing but routine maintenance since. Iāve thought about EV/hybrid, but not worth it for my situation.
I can have way more liquid cash for other things, while my car prints me money in the form of savings.
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u/BrianLevre Aug 24 '24
Sort of the same here. One of my cars is a 2009 Honda Fit that's been getting 39-40 mpg and I've had it paid off for 9 off the 11 years I've owned it. I've put 120,000 miles on it as a courier in the last 2 years. It costs about 7.5 cents per mile for fuel and I earn much, much more than that per mile.
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u/PurpleSausage77 Aug 24 '24
I had a couple Fits in the past. Incredible vehicles. Only reason I didnāt pick up another was their prices doubled after 2021. I found my Mazda3 cheaper, but I do miss the cargo loading possibilities with the Fit. Magic seats that fold multiple ways. The seats fold down completely flat and have the nicest lowest cargo deck for easy loading and unloading. Nothing else in or around its vehicle size class comes close to that.
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u/Gratitude15 Aug 24 '24
Newish rav4 is your issue
Gen 2 prius has to tco savings of like 25K over your stuff?
If you want larger, prius c also waayy cheaper
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u/Chasm_18 Aug 24 '24
One more thing to consider: Hybrids use regenerative braking. My Ford C-Max Hybrid has a gauge which tells you your "braking efficiency". I routinely hit "100%" on this. I assume this means that I'm not wearing down my brake pads while stopping. This can save hundreds of dollars over the lifetime of a vehicle.
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u/GnPQGuTFagzncZwB Aug 24 '24
I do the computer work for a medium sized independent garage and they do not like to work on cars that are not all gas for any engine or drivetrain issues. They are pretty open about not being good at them and the service is going to cost you more than you would expect. For some issues they just do not want the job and point you at the local dealer. They may sell you some ky for when you get there.
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u/Raleigh_Dude Aug 24 '24
Get your financing AHEAD of time at a credit union. Buy a car with 60k miles plus on it from carmax. I would go ICE and wait for the next echelon shift.
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u/Arrow_2011 Aug 24 '24
I would probably factor in depreciation. I have a Rav4 Hybrid, which is coming up on 2 years old. Where I live, if I was to sell now, I would get very close to what I paid. Not in the US, so it's probably a completely different market.
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u/Professional_Bundler Aug 24 '24
Fuck this post. Being frugal is one thing. But being more eco-friendly is another or weāre all fucked six ways from Sunday.
The most frugal thing you could do is have your car for 12 years so you can balance out on your Excel spreadsheet. Buy a Toyota Camry Hybrid and know youāre doing something good for the earth (comparatively).
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u/cell_kimistry Aug 23 '24
Price different includes trim levels in the gas only car? The hybrid probably has the high end stuffs?
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u/OxymoronsAreMyFave Aug 23 '24
I drive a Prius that I bought 6 years ago. It is strictly a commuter vehicle as my drive to work each day was just under 100kms.
When I purchased it had 135,000kms on it. It just rolled over 300,000kms and I have been very blessed to not have any issues with it, knock on wood.
My insurance costs are no higher than on my Dodge Ram pickup that I was driving full time before this.
It has been a great all around vehicle and is quite spacious. We once drove it across Canada and the fuel cost was just under $200CAD.
I think when considering a hybrid or EV, how you use it and how new you want it to be makes a difference. Highway driving is very cost effective for a hybrid/EV. Depreciation can seriously impact the cost savings.
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u/ricochet48 Aug 24 '24
I biked 1k more miles than I drove last year. Gas should be more expensive to deter excessive driving (see Europe for example). Invest in public transit, it's the way.
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u/BakedSpiral Aug 24 '24
Public transit isn't an option for most Americans. It just doesn't really exist in many places.
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u/Oldcadillac Aug 24 '24
Chicken and egg scenario, it doesnāt exist so thereās no demand but thereās no demand because it doesnāt exist. People spend a lot of money to go on vacation to places where they donāt have to drive anywhere (eg Disneyland) but donāt stop to think about how much nicer their town/city could be if it wasnāt designed entirely for cars.
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u/randynumbergenerator Aug 24 '24
We also have zoning and other regulations that encourage single-family homes and sprawling development patterns, which are extremely inefficient in many ways -- we need many more miles of roads, pipes, power lines, etc. to service the same number of households.Ā
I'm not saying everyone should live in an apartment tower, but there should be fewer restrictions on the density of development -- and the amount of parking required for development. In some places, parking accounts for half of all developed area, despite 80% of spaces remaining vacant most of the year.
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u/ricochet48 Aug 24 '24
I was once a true US car-brain. I could not fathom not having my freedom-mobile to drive everywhere. In the suburbs literally nothing aside from a park and 7-11 was remotely within walking distance.
Then I lived in a well-planned city in Europe and bought a bicycle. It changed my perspective completely. When I came back to Chicago, I bought a bike instantly (well several). Now I ride about 1k miles more than I drive each year (still have a 20 year old car as a backup, mostly to visit friends & family in the suburbs). I drive less than 99% of adults in the country I would suspect.
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u/ricochet48 Aug 24 '24
Which is why I said INVEST in public transit. 90% of places can function pretty well on it. Of course rural areas will still need trucks and such, but there's so much wasted potential in the US as we love SUVs so much.
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u/NimbleHoof Aug 23 '24
Of course gas wins. The gas companies own everyone.
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u/j909m Aug 23 '24
By āown everybodyā, do you mean āprovided a solution that saved consumers money over the alternativesā?
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Aug 23 '24
You are also missing the savings from not having to replace the hybrid battery. Refurb runs around 1.5k-2k, and New one is 4-5k. I think it lasts around 10-15 years
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u/drewskie_drewskie Aug 24 '24
But hybrids save wear and tear on the powertrain so it's a wash
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Aug 24 '24
i disagree. Hybrids increase wear on the gas power train. I believe the start stop system increases wear. Most of the wear occurs when the starting and shutting off the car. Unless you're using electric power train without turning the engine on your trips.
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u/drewskie_drewskie Aug 25 '24
There's lots of data on this, hybrids aren't new. They are more reliable than ICE cars
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Aug 25 '24
Can you cite some sources? Its hard to believe maintaining two powertrains is more reliable than a single powertrain.
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u/elivings1 Aug 23 '24
So I always have said gas crawled so the hybrid could walk and the hybrid walked so the EV could run. What I mean by that is my old gas car I filled up 17 gallons a week, my Prius was 7 gallons a week and my EV is 400 dollars a year to charge at home. You can buy a Tesla model Y basic model and after the tax break it is not much more than the hybrid. I heard there is a car that sells for something like 34k which will be equivalent to your gas car after tax break
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u/indianburrito22 Aug 23 '24
This is why gas needs to be more expensive (itās already heavily subsidized)
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u/inlinefourpower Aug 23 '24
Probably accurate. If gas prices increase then it might make sense, but if they decrease it definitely won't.Ā
Hybrids also have more complicated drivetrain stuff going on, and in some cases even borrow trunk depth or some internal volume for batteries. All it would take is one problem with a system that the hybrid caused that a gas car wouldn't experience and the comparison is dead. I have had two hybrids and never had a problem with anything strictly hybrid related, but I have a feeling some of the other routine maintenance was intensified by the heavier hybrid car. Their weight increases wear and tear on the roads, and their batteries are costly from an environmental friendliness perspective when created or disposed of. If the battery efficiency decreases at all, the hybrid will lose this comparison.Ā
You also can't really ignore TVM on the money. Locking up 4k today to have it gradually return by 2036 isn't fair. Even at modest savings account rates it might be closer to 6k by then.Ā
But you're on r/frugal. Any other time besides these past few years I'd be quick to say that a used car is a way better pick than a new car, but things are still pretty jacked up so who knows. I think mathematically it's a losing battle. Environmentally even if you calculate that the hybrid is better than the gas powered car, the right thing to do for the environment is to get a used car and drive it into the groundĀ
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u/FitPhilosopher3136 Aug 23 '24
I don't know why you got down voted. I think your comments are very sensible. I build Toyotas every day. The hybrids are unbelievably complicated. I don't think I would own one long term and you would have to if you want payback on the additional purchase price.
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u/inlinefourpower Aug 24 '24
It's a surprise to me that I didn't have problems with my hybrids. I do think that the escape had its hybrid system die entirely, the gas mileage dropped off to about 24 mpg and I'm pretty sure it started at around 32 mpg. I don't understand it well, but I found its planetary transmission very interesting. Iirc it also had continuous gearing so it never noticably shifted?Ā
That said, I think Ford (and maybe other car makers?) have done a lot better with turbos and more efficient conventional engines than hybrids ever did. The gas mileage on them can be incredible, especially considering that they're sometimes very powerful.Ā
The 2015 I4 Ecoboost engine put my dad's 2006 V8 to shame and I think it got over 30 mpg. Around 330 hp iirc.
I wish the hybrid technology matured to a better place, but it doesn't feel a lot better than it did in 06 or 08.Ā
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u/disembodied_voice Aug 24 '24
and their batteries are costly from an environmental friendliness perspective when created or disposed of
The idea that hybrid batteries have a noteworthy environmental impact was thoroughly refuted seventeen years ago.
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u/NoobAck Aug 23 '24
Plug-in hybrid or non-plug-in?
I have a hybrid hyundai that has a 20 mile battery life.
I would plug it in in the afternoon after work and then drive to work in the morning (12-15 minute commute) and then back home and barely used any has at all.
Essentially I had maybe 40 bucks every 2 weeks cost of fuel because I had to fill up so little.
What helps here is that it's not an suv, it's a sedan, and I rarely used it on my time off that is far since I lived in a relatively close area to the shops and restaurants in my area.
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u/Phndrummer Aug 23 '24
I will wait to buy a PHEV for the same price as a gas vehicle and then get the big savings
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u/TheMongerOfFishes Aug 24 '24
I commute on a motorcycle about 180 miles a day. That's not a typo. I get about 50 miles a gallon and it uses regular so that's $54 a week in gas. My other vehicle is a Miata which does about 35 to 40 miles a gallon but takes premium so that's about $100 a week. I ride rain or shine but not in the snow or when it's super cold, so if I get a good 35 weeks a year that's saving about $1,700. Maintenance on the bike is a heck of a lot cheaper than the car as well so there's a bit of a savings and I only paid 3,000 bucks for the bike. Plus I love riding motorcycles :-)
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u/workitloud Aug 24 '24
Iāve had 3 Prius. 2010, 2012, and 2017. 350,000 miles on the group. The 2010 got around 48 mpg, the 2012 was 52-54, and the 2017 consistently gets 58++. I fully intend to drive the 2017 into the ground, just to see where that ground might be. I know several people who have gotten 400k+ with no problems at all, and my experience has been solid all the way around. Also have never had a brake job done on any of these vehicles, as the braking system uses the engine to recharge the batteries. Mobil1 all the way, and genuine Toyota filters. A case of those filters was $28.00.
My fuel costs currently are about five cents a mile, full coverage insurance is $60/month, and it carries whatever I need it to. Also have a late model cargo van/RV that gets 18 mpg (3500 GMC 4WD) and a Kawasaki 1400 that gets 34 mpg in ECO mode, and gets 30 mpg @ 100+mph. Itās weird when you get almost double the mileage in your car than a motorcycle.
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u/curtludwig Aug 24 '24
It's worse if you mostly drive on the highway, probably a little better if you're mostly driving in town.
How much is a brand new RAV4? I wouldn't consider that new a used Toyota, the "it's a Toyota" tax is too large.
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u/AwsiDooger Aug 24 '24
I can't imagine relying on one patchwork arbitrary example, regardless of topic
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u/KindTap Aug 24 '24
Do agree with you on cost. The thing with the rav4 though as well as all of Toyota hybrids is that ecvt is so darn reliable. The 8 speed in okay but it has failed on people. The ecvt is a lot more reliable. In addition you get a bit more speed and the car overall is quieter at low speeds, especially good since the rav is pretty noisy overall.
Financially I agree with you unless you drive a ton more than the average person. It gets even worse for plugins and electric can be a very mixed bag
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u/sweetrobna Aug 24 '24
It really depends on what you are comparing and what prices are like. Looking at the used cars for sale near me the price is a lot closer, the hybrid is cheaper overall. You can plug in what years or trim you are looking for
https://www.cargurus.com/research/compare/2022-Toyota-RAV4-Hybrid-vs-2022-Toyota-RAV4-c32062-c32096
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u/Difficult_Orchid3390 Aug 24 '24
FWIW our 2018 Rav4 Hybrid is probably 50% more efficient than the gas only version since we basically only do 100% full city driving. If you do a lot of city only driving it's a hell of a difference!
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u/Whiterabbit-- Aug 24 '24
The car will last more than 12 years. Question is if the battery will or not.
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u/Sri-So Aug 24 '24
Agree. Just the cost doesn't justify buying a Hybrid over Gas only. There are other reasons like 1. Quick power 2. Quietness(most times, other times it is noisier IMO) 3. Fewer trips to the gas station.
Also Not sure if the Gas only model has all the other features that the Hybrid has.
But then you would lose some Cargo room and some towing capacity and spend some money upfront.
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u/Elymanic Aug 24 '24
This is all varied. Is most of your driving in traffic or out. And those mpg seems tilted.
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u/Welder_Subject Aug 24 '24
I have a 2023 Rav4 hybrid, the fact that it uses regular as opposed to super unleaded like my last car is a huge savings.
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u/mpaes98 Aug 24 '24
Your first mistake was buying a new car.
Low-mileage used hybrid SUV is an absolute good investment.
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u/summonsays Aug 24 '24
My experience is really second hand and from 1st or 2nd gen hybrids. But man my aunt had so many problems with it, because it has both systems it had double the problems.Ā
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u/Last_Aeon Aug 24 '24
I donāt own a car and use public transit but itās always a surprise how much they can cost.
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u/nevernudeftw Aug 25 '24
I need to see the receipts in GAS getting 31MPG on a suv. On my 2019 SUV that I drove mostly in-city, got 21mpg.
I don't believe that shit at all
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u/Narrow-Air-3425 Aug 25 '24
Look up 2023 RAV4. 27 city / 35 hwy. a lot of it depends on how you drive and how much you drive on streets vs highways
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u/LevyWevy Aug 23 '24
My thoughts would be the exact opposite, a lot of hybrid cars go for less on the used market because their batteries tend to give up after you put enough miles on it
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u/Authentic_Jester Aug 23 '24
100% depends on the manufacturer. Toyota and Honda are good, everyone else not so much.
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u/airjutsu Aug 23 '24
Maybe even more dependent on car model/year. A $5000, 2000s Toyota Corolla is king of car value if it can last you for 200k miles without major repairs.
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u/Authentic_Jester Aug 23 '24
Oh my god, yes. I'm not expecting OP to find gold like that though. š
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u/Narrow-Air-3425 Aug 23 '24
at least with the Rav4 specifically. Hybrid is consistently more expensive than standard used. If you keep year of model, mileage, trim constant.
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u/Authentic_Jester Aug 23 '24
That's gonna be true of every hybrid because they literally have more sophisticated technology in them. Thus, my comment about affording the upfront cost, it would be a long-term investment. That's the payoff.
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u/Narrow-Air-3425 Aug 23 '24
right so that's why in my OP I had mentioned starting at year 12 is when the cost savings start. However for the average American, they won't be keeping their car for that long.
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u/swancandle Aug 23 '24
Not in California. Even used hybrid cars command a premium, moreso if gas prices are high.
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u/cyberchief Aug 23 '24
Are you sure the trade in value will be equal between the two? What about private sale?
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u/I_FAP_TO_TURKEYS Aug 23 '24
Just buy a used 2004 Honda Civic for $3k, save the other $30k, maybe invest it and now your money is making you money WHILE being just as fuel efficient as the hybrid.
If A civic isn't available, there are plenty of Chevy Sparks or Ford Focii going for that cheap. If you're worried about reliability, don't. You can buy 10 of the beaters before it makes more sense to buy a new car.
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u/1_Pawn Aug 23 '24
Do you ever factor in pollution and environment? Not even 50 cent for every gallon of extra gas you burn? Nothing at all? I really hope petrol goes to 100 dollars per gallon so people finally start thinking
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u/Chance-Work4911 Aug 23 '24
What's the cost of a new battery, starter, or whatever else a hybrid needs when it gets older? That's where I don't think we really understand the average cost of ownership yet.
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u/wanna_be_green8 Aug 24 '24
What an ignorant statement your last sentence is. That kind of increase and people will starve. We aren't ready. Infrastructure has to be ready to support the EVs and it's just not there yet.
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u/chompy283 Aug 23 '24
So you want to force the issue on people? Oh ok. The facts arethere are little to no chargers where I live and in many other communities.
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u/NimbleHoof Aug 23 '24
Also, this post is about gas or hybrid. Hybrids don't need chargers.
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u/Chance-Work4911 Aug 23 '24
There are plug-in hybrids now also, but I don't think OP was using that in their example.
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u/Narrow-Air-3425 Aug 23 '24
In my area unless you have a charger at home it's a major inconvenience to solely use public chargers. The closest one to me always has lines of people waiting to use them. Especially in CA where energy costs have sky rocketed I don't see the value on owning plug ins unless you have solar.
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u/PinkMonorail Aug 23 '24
I sold my EV because it was too much hassle and I had to be towed too many times just because I listened to the radio and used the air conditioner. That turtle can go straight to hell.
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u/NimbleHoof Aug 23 '24
Where tf do you live? I was just in the middle of buttfuck nowhere and there were chargers everywhere. I highly doubt you couldn't find a charger nowhere near you.
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u/a-confused-princess Aug 23 '24
Hi, I'm from buttfuck nowhere! Your comment made me look up EV chargers near me, and I just (surprisingly) found 3 of them within 10 minutes of me! No idea there were so many. Only knew of 1 a few years ago. Thanks for making me google it :)
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u/porcomaster Aug 24 '24
Never understood the arguments into hybrids, if you need a reliable car that will withstand years and years, a gas car and a full electric are the best options , an hybrid is a car that have both tecnologies and will fail sooner.
If you have enough money to buy an hybrid, an electric car will be a better bet in 90% of the cases, as they are dirty cheap to run.
If you do not, a cheap gasoline car is better.
If you do not have money to buy an electric car, but do have to buy an hybrid, you still need to run a certain milage per year to make it worth it.
And this amount of milage per year will increase your insurance premium, and again hybrids are more expensive to fix.
So, yes there are specific cases where hybrids do work, but they are niche, so small in the grand scheme of things that if you ask 10 people that own hybrids, problably just one was really worth it.
Hybrids were a great transition technology, we already have enough good electric cars on the market that hybrids are not necessary any more
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u/Novogobo Aug 23 '24
well in your accounting, your time spent pumping gas has no value. i doubt you really think so lowly of yourself.
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u/BakedSpiral Aug 24 '24
This is r/frugal. It's extremely common for people here to do things that take longer if it saves them money, lots of people don't have a choice because they're broke as hell.
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u/Nomad_Industries Aug 23 '24
In Toyota RAV4 world, this math is never going to math. You'd need the RAV4 Prime (plug-in hybrid) to make a dent in running costs, but Toyota couldn't be assed to build very many and they're all horrendously overpriced.
That said, your "total costs" aren't including insurance, maintenance, repair, or depreciation.
Personally, I like Edmunds Total Cost of Ownership tool for estimating 5-year TCO.