How much "re-education" needs to be done to create a communist society?

[u/band_in_DC]

People debate human nature. Some say we're naturally good and society makes us evil. Some say we're naturally evil and society makes us good. What do you think?

My adolescent self believes, like Nietzsche, that the will to power is what motivates all humans & their ideologies.

Ultimately, though, I'd say we're mostly sheep. We will be the product of whatever society we're in. There are extremes on both ends--- Nazi Germany, and Jainist India. Did each society contain the same number of psychopaths and altruistic people? Were the psychopaths checked in a Jainist society, but were rewarded in a Nazi society? Or were psychopaths completely non-existent in the Jainist society?

We've had slavery before but now it's reprehensible. I believe that one day we may look back at our omnivore diet and wonder how we could be so evil to mistreat animals to such a degree.

So, this brings up the question of how much "re-education" needs to be done to create a successful communist society? How would it assuage the nature of those with ambition who would destroy the social fabric?

It's no secret that people try to instill values into children. Both conservatives and liberals do it. Instilling civic virtue in kids is key to making society function peacefully. But what additional instillation would be needed for a communist society?

At the extreme end of "re-education" you have Pol Pot and his "year zero" mentality. Not a good look.

Another example of "re-education" is Chinese assimilation of the Uyghurs. Some consider this a cultural genocide. I believe that China had a problem with Muslim terrorists and decided it was necessary to assimilate these people into mainstream society. While it may seem dystopic, it's at least more moral than bombing the hell out of them-- which is what the US does.

[u/-_Green]

What you've identified in calling people "sheep" is that people's ideas, morals, ethics, etc, are shaped by the society they live in.

In terms of the amount of education necessary for a successful proletarian revolution, education in Marxist ideas during the revolution is necessary to be provided by a revolutionary communist party.

But Capitalism has actually done the hard part in educating the working class that Capitalism is bad through it's rampant and increased exploitation of them, and inability to deal with recent crises like Australia being on fire, Covid 19, and the Palestinian Genocide.

On top of that, the proletarian are the strongest they've ever been, concentrated in cities and taking part in socialised production of literally every aspect of running society. Marx calls the proletariat the gravediggers of capitalism because of this

[u/ghosts-on-the-ohio]

humans are neither good nor evil. They are rational self-interested actors who do whatever they perceive to be in the best interests of themselves, their immediate communities, and their class. This is never going to change, no matter how much "re-education" we try to do.

Building a socialist, and then communist, society does not require that human beings be unusually good or altruistic. It requires that the working class become society's new ruling class and control the government and economy democratically.

That being said, if a socialist revolution is going to happen, the old ruling class will have to be dismantled. Those who do not accept losing their power and wealth will have to dealt with one way or another. And yes, that may mean imprisonment for the particularly nasty members of the old ruling class, and reeeducation for those among them who can be potentially integrated into the proletariat.

[u/Lumpy-Nihilist-9933]

Uyghurs aren't being re-educated, the people who committed terrorist acts are. which is better than torturing them in Guantanamo.

[u/0cc1dent → u/Lumpy-Nihilist-9933]

Average Uyghurs are being educated (pretty normal, tho usually boarding schools) so they don’t join terrorist groups. Terrorists go to prison or get executed

[u/smorgy4]

In a capitalist country, it wouldn’t take that much re-education. The most fundamental change initially would be who owns the means of production and which class controls the government, which wouldn’t require re-education to achieve. As policies change and industries develop over time, the only re-education needed would be learning about changes in laws, policies, and new products; which doesn’t need to be any more intrusive than ads in most western countries. The cultural shift happens as the behaviors that are materially incentivized shift; people would participate more in their community democracy when their community democracy responds to their needs and goals over the needs and goals of private industry for example.

The re-education I think you’re referring to (arresting and imprisoning people to go through re-education) has typically targeted people and groups actively fighting and undermining the new governments. The equivalent in the US would be groups like white supremacist groups, politically influential capitalists, street gangs, terrorist or rebel groups, etc. They were far more common in the years following the revolution while there were still active opposition. The equivalent historically in capitalist countries were concentration camps, civilian massacres, torture, etc.

As for the harsh examples you bring up, Pol Pot was a primitivist and was overthrown by communists. China isn’t running a genocide in Xinjiang, or forcing a cultural assimilation, they’re deradicalizing terrorist groups and at risk people and pouring resources into economic development to prevent future radicalization. The claims of genocide came from China’s political rivals without actual evidence on investigation.

[u/cobeywilliamson]

Is it possible to not compete over resources?

[u/Anti-Expressant]

What happens when the sheep have to survive? If they're weaker being they will always try to have self preservation but if you have the will to power then you would die for willingly for the revolution. The "sheep" are human and I believe with education a significant amount that's well rounded based on the child's interest, and philosophical and podcasts theory for adults you can teach people the will to power and strength to die great. The whole point of communism is create a world where people have the opportunity to grow and make decisions.

[u/TrickZestyclose]

Screw civic virtue. Focus on profit generation - something that will actually drive economic growth vs this hold hands and sing sweet songs community crap. Communities stifle individualist excellence 

[u/Illustrator_Moist]

Ideas are not as powerful as material conditions. Nazis weren't just "bad people with bad ideas" but we're the only ones talking about the downfall of German society after getting fucked from WW1. No re-education needed, just help people live their lives in peace and ideas will come afterwards.

[u/ComradeCaniTerrae → u/Illustrator_Moist]

It is true that material conditions drive forward society, but you still have to deal with reactionaries. Precisely as demonstrated by Nazi Germany.

A socialist revolution in the imperial core will have many reactionaries to deal with, and a long uphill climb to stabilize its own economy (thanks to neocolonialism).

Gulaging people would be the nice path, at present. We are much more likely to get a wave of fascism that will cannibalize its own base until some of these contradictions are resolved.

Modern imperialism has strange implications. Like that the heart of the American working class is in Shenzhen, China and Mexico City, Mexico. The proles of the imperial core have developed a definitive stratum of labor aristocracy affected through their unequal exchange with the global south and the subsequent reaping of surplus labor value.

Many western proles have learned to like this state of affairs and violently resist changing it. Racism emerged as an ideology within the superstructure purely to facilitate this European colonial project as it dominated and plundered the world. As it still does, today.

There are many reactionary stances the average western Marxist takes that must be addressed in the course of achieving global socialism. You are correct, however, that what drove the birth of these ideologies is poor political education—among other material conditions

Still, we gonna have to gulag a sizable portion of the “white” world. Because they’re accustomed to being on top and they will want it back—and because the economies of many western powers stand on the edge of an abyss.

“Neo-colonialism, like colonialism, is an attempt to export the social conflicts of the capitalist countries. The temporary success of this policy can be seen in the ever widening gap between the richer and the poorer nations of the world. But the internal contradictions and conflicts of neo-colonialism make it certain that it cannot endure as a permanent world policy. How it should be brought to an end is a problem that should be studied, above all, by the developed nations of the world, because it is they who will feel the full impact of the ultimate failure. The longer it continues the more certain it is that its inevitable collapse will destroy the social system of which they have made it a foundation.…

…The system of neo-colonialism was therefore instituted and in the short run it has served the developed powers admirably. It is in the long run that its consequences are likely to be catastrophic for them.”

• Kwame Nkrumah, “Neocolonialism: The Last Stage of Imperialism”

[u/Chriseverywhere]

"Re-education" is what a authoritarian nerds like marxists do, because they have little practical understanding of society. Ideas flow mostly along trust, love and demonstration, and elaborate explanations by themselves are usually ignored. Authoritarian nerds don't understand this, so they resort to violence which only amplifies their great social incompetence and the stops the flow and testing of ideas. Being wrong is normal and alright, but it becomes problem when people make their ideas dogmatic, which is due to them being socially incompetent nerds.