r/BlueOrigin • u/RGregoryClark • 4d ago
Could the New Shepard capsule be adapted for a capsule for the orbital New Glenn?
Blue Origin apparently wants to get to manned missions:
Blue Origin is getting serious about developing a human spacecraft
Company seeks: "Experience with human spaceflight or high-performance aircraft systems?"
ERIC BERGER – MAR 4, 2024 10:10 AM |
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/03/blue-origin-staffing-up-to-build-a-human-spacecraft/
If you gave the New Shepard capsule a heat shield would that be enough for it to act as an orbital capsule?
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u/NASATVENGINNER 4d ago
The missions it would fly would be better served with a purpose built capsule.
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u/Robert_the_Doll1 4d ago
Um, no.
New Shepard's capsule would need a lot more upgrades, almost a complete redesign, in fact.
Even assuming a simple single orbit mission (perigee is kept at 70 km or less) where you could conceivably delete a service module, you have to increase the onboard consumables for a 4-6 person crew, they would definitely need partial pressure IVA suits like Soyuz, Shenzou, Dragon, and Starliner do in case of atmosphere loss since it will not be able to return quickly.
In addition, the entire base of the vehicle will need to be redesigned and rebuilt because the NO2 landing thrusters, the outlet nozzle for the launch escape rocket motor, and more will wind up being covered by the new heat shield. So, a whole new LES will need to be designed and qualified.
The windows may need to be reduced in size or reinforced due to higher aerodynamic loads induced by faster acceleration by the larger, more powerful New Glenn, particularly during Max Q.
Navigation and Control: Orbital re-entry requires sophisticated navigation and control systems to manage re-entry corridors, which are significantly different from those used for sub-orbital flights.
Communication: An orbital mission requires different communication systems, including capabilities for longer range and possibly inter-satellite links.
If the capsule is expected to land in the ocean rather than on land, it will need to be certified for water landing, and downrange recovery units will need to be purchased along with hiring and training personnel for recovery. The weight of the capsule will likely go up, thus necessitating redesigning the parachutes to handle the increased loading, and then certifying them.
So, while the experience and some modular systems from the NS could be beneficial, a nearly clean-sheet design would be necessary to transition from sub-orbital to orbital capabilities, essentially building a new spacecraft that borrows concepts but not components directly from NS.
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u/sebaska 3d ago
Adding to that: the windows would also have to be upgraded for re-entry reasons. Radiative heating is a thing and at re-entry plasma temperatures a non-trivial part of it happens via visible wavelengths. It would require proper analysis, but it's quite likely they would be enough to make the cabin uncomfortably (or even dangerously) hot.
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u/scotyb 4d ago
There is most certainly learnings and opportunities to repurpose many common components, but no chance they would take one up as is with just adding a heat shield.
So it depends on your definition of "adapted" and how much adaptation qualifies vs a new vehicle.
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u/RGregoryClark 4d ago
The large windows are probably impractical for a capsule under the extreme heat of orbital reentry. The Dragon for example doesn’t have windows. The Apollo capsule and the Orion capsule do have windows though they are quite small.
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u/Bdr1983 4d ago
Dragon has windows, just pretty small ones.
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u/xman2000 4d ago
Go back and watch some of the videos. It is about as airtight as an average SUV. They just overpressure the thing for the short flight and don't worry about leaks. So, no, I wouldn't want to ride that thing to orbit even with a few upgrades.
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u/Dark_Aurora 4d ago
I’m sure there’s lots of learnings from it, but it would need an entirely new ECLSS for longer duration missions.
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u/WeylandsWings 4d ago
Which to be totally fair Blue is already making an ECLSS system for Blue Moon HLS lander. So if you take the learning/system from the lander and some of the knowledge from NS Capsule then all you need is reentry hardware.
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u/RGregoryClark 4d ago
Good point. I wonder if they could just add a heat shield to the Blue Moon crew module.
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u/WeylandsWings 4d ago
No. Totally wrong shape and dynamics as it isn’t designed with reentry in mind.
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u/rustybeancake 4d ago
They will be building an orbital crew vehicle in Blue Moon, just not one that needs to reenter earth’s atmosphere. They can take many learnings from that work to apply to an orbital earth reentry vehicle.
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u/enzo32ferrari 4d ago
The amount of retrofit the New Shepard capsule would need for orbital flight and reentry, you might as well build a new capsule from scratch.
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u/sidelong1 4d ago edited 4d ago
Blue, as I understand it, will aim to have NG be certified for human flight. Blue is aiming to have an Orbital Capsule to dock at the ISS before it is decommisioned, about 2028. Before it is human rated, NG could concievably use an orbital capsule to ferry cargo to the ISS.
Another Lunar Capsule, not exceeding the 4,100m/s requirement for LEO-NRHO-Earth Return, could see Blue launch cargo/crew to the Gateway.
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u/EsotericGreen 4d ago
Where have you read that they intend to have it capable of sending humans by 2028? Very curious about that!
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u/sidelong1 4d ago
Try as I might the discussion points that I make are not meant to have pretensiousness included or misinformation in them. Unmanned capsules have previously and will continue to dock at the ISS and that is what I expect Blue to attempt to do by at least 2028.
So, Blue does an incredible amount of testing to prepare for success in all its work. Tests of all the space systems is at work at this very time. Everything Blue does, each individual space system being worked, is in its maturation stage. These efforts lean toward the dicovery of some new science, which is inherently exciting.
Tests of their knowledge of space systems ought to provide real success for any of their space systems when they use them. Therefore, I believe that NG will have a more or less flawless first launch, release of GS2 and its flight, and with a landing, without mishap, of the GS2.
The SAA-UA-23-38915 pdf has much of Blue's plan for Orbital Capsule; its docking and more can be found about Blues's Orbital Capsule, by reference to the NSF website. Try going to this link:
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u/RGregoryClark 2d ago
The cargo version of the Blue Origin lunar lander Blue Moon Mark 1 is scheduled to be test flown to and land on the Moon, as launched on New Glenn this year. This is smaller than the planned crewed Mark 2 version, 21 tons gross mass compared to 45 tons.
Supposed you gave the Mark 1 a crew cabin? Judging from the Apollo LEM’s ascent stage, its dry mass could be ca. 2 tons. It actually could be less than this because for this purpose it would not have the ascent engine or propellant tanks.
Key question: could such a small dry mass crew cabin be adapted to be a crew capsule for launch from Earth to LEO? It could hold consumables for a crew of 3 for 90 hours, about 4 days:
AI Overview
According to available information, the Apollo Lunar Module (LEM) was designed to support two astronauts for approximately 45 hours on the Moon, including depressurization and repressurization cycles, but could potentially stretch to support three astronauts for 90 hours without such cycles.
Key points about the Apollo LEM: Designed for two astronauts: The primary design of the LEM was to sustain two astronauts for a 45-hour mission. Flexibility for longer stays: In certain situations, the system could potentially support three astronauts for a longer duration (up to 90 hours) by omitting depressurization cycles. Apollo 17 record: The longest stay on the Moon by an Apollo mission was achieved by Apollo 17, with the astronauts spending around 75 hours on the lunar surface.An Apollo era heat shield was about 15% of the dry mass of the capsule, but the PICA-X material of SpaceX used on the Dragon is about 7%, so that would add only 140 kg to a 2 ton dry mass.
A conical shell added would only be proportionally small mount.
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u/whitelancer64 4d ago
Blue Origin was developing a biconic capsule for the commercial crew program. I would imagine that, unless they buy Starliner, they would use that as the basis for a future crew capsule.
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u/PixelAstro 4d ago
It’d be cool to see them swap out the second stage with a giant crew capsule for suborbital missions and fly New Glenn like they fly New Shepherd. Surely the rocket could be launched in a similar trajectory.
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u/trash-berd 4d ago
With the size of the fairing you could literally wad a whole new shepard, booster and all up there.
Whether or not the mass capacity is actually threre though I have no idea.
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u/Mindless_Use7567 4d ago
In short No. it doesn’t have the life support or orbital manoeuvring capability to function as a orbital crew capsule. Better to design a purpose built spacecraft for the job.
But it does give them some relevant knowledge that can be applied to a space crew vehicle.
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u/EsotericGreen 4d ago
I so hope we get that BO biconic capsule some day, but intended to be used with a seperately launched TLI stage for Lunar visits
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u/3x10to8th 4d ago
It's kind of like asking if a VW beetle could be used as a submarine if you just caulk the windows and vents shut... like, you'll survive underwater for a few minutes... then die...
Said differently, no. You need a full redesigned module... which is in the works.
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u/RGregoryClark 4d ago
Irony: when an argument against a false equivalence itself uses a false equivalence.
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u/LittleHornetPhil 4d ago
They’re already working on a capsule but they may end up buying Boeing’s space business also
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u/fluffysilverunicorn 4d ago
New Shepard fits inside the New Glenn fairing; it would be dramatically undersized
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u/Grouchy-Garbage6718 4d ago
I worked on NS Crew Capsules version 1 and 2. They are current on version 3 which is very similar.
It does not have sufficient life support systems (oxygen system, water systems, waste management, sufficient heat shielding, etc.)
There’s no way it would ever be able to be an orbital vehicle.
Blue origin is exploring concepts for orbital vehicles or maybe buy CST-100 from Boeing is what I hear from friends that are still at BO.
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u/RGregoryClark 4d ago
Thanks for that. Perhaps the crew module for the Blue Moon can be so adapted?
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u/marc020202 2d ago
The NS capsule is missing a lot of things needed for orbital missions:
A heat shield. Not as simple to bolt on as in ksp
The abort motor in the middle of the heat shield probably won't work. Different abort system needed.
An attitude control system (NS is essentially spin stabilized afaik)
Manoeuvring engines for orbit adjustments and de-orbit
A life support system lasting longer than a couple of minutes
I'd also question if the structure itself can survive the entry forces combined with the heat. I'm pretty sure the windows wouldn't survive the heat.
Some kind of ofsett cog for lower g re entry and re entry steering
So my answer is, no, the NS capsule cannot be used for orbital missions.
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u/RGregoryClark 4d ago
The reason I’m asking is how rapidly Blue Origin could compete with SpaceX for manned flight.
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u/paulhockey5 4d ago
It’s built specifically as a suborbital capsule, it would be easier and cheaper to take the lessons learned and design a purpose built orbital ship. Or they could throw Dreamchaser on it, that would be cool.
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u/jdownj 4d ago
Depends on what you mean by “compete”. All the NASA $ for flights to the ISS are basically committed now. A demo flight or space tourism is possible. They would need to be further along on a capsule then they appear to be for it to involve the ISS(of course they could pull a fully built capsule out of a secret skunk works hanger, but that’s low probability). NG is larger than it needs to be for any of the existing capsules.
Of course they will have a capsule, whether their own, or buying/flying somebody else’s. They have a lot of long term ambitions in LEO. I just expect that we are talking more like 2030-ish involving a private station.
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u/NewCharlieTaylor 4d ago
No. NS CC has next to nothing in the way of "hotel" functions. It would flounder as a NG CC.
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u/PropLander 2d ago
Same as asking if a Prius can be “adapted” into a pick truck. You might as well just start over.
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u/kkingsbe 4d ago
It doesn’t have a service module or a way to deorbit. Once all that is added it’s a new vehicle. See dragon 1 to dragon 2