This one hurt me. A new coworker who did the same job I did told me he was making more. I had everything on this guy... More certs, more years experience, more training, and above all I was 100% billable which meant my company didn't pay a dime for me and made significantly more than I got paid.
Of course I decide to ask my boss wtf, but I'm in trouble because I discussed it and it was none of my business. It's none of my business how you're screwing me over?
This is really good to know. When I found out people with much less experience were being paid more and brought it up, my employers announced to everyone that any discussion of pay would result in immediate termination. I'll have to add this to the list of illegal shit they do, just in case.
Keep in mind that it's also illegal to fire people for trying to organize a union. Union democracies can become corrupt, like any system, but that's no reason to just throw up your arms and submit to management. They're organized against you with everything from the state establishing and maintaining the riches' claim to most of the earth's resources to their feudal-esque management structures. Nobody can fight a system that well organized without organizing themselves.
IANAL, but the people who stream off Twitch aren't employees. It's like they're small businesses making contracts with a larger business.
It becomes problematic when "independent contractors" behave as if they were employees but are paid as contractors in order for the company to avoid paying benefits.
Adjunct professor here. Per class contracts are why I'm leaving the profession. Full time employment is getting harder and harder to find in higher education precisely because the schools don't want to pay benefits. A maximum teaching load of two classes per semester at 3k per class pretty much ensures I'll be working myself to death at three schools, teaching six classes per week to pay my student loans and mortgage.
Full time course load is considered three classes per semester plus committee responsibilities. I'm working nearly twice that for much less than what they make.
I wish Bernie Sanders and other politicians would recognize that this piecemeal method of employment is likely the next step for corporations if they change wage law. Sidesteps the whole situation.
tl;dr - Higher education is an awful, exploitative industry.
Fellow adjunct, I feel your pain. I can earn a maximum of about 10k a semester for 6 labs or 3 lectures (half time because anything more they have to pay benefits). That's 20k a year. I only teach labs because there's less prep work and I don't have to create my own curriculum. Oh yeah and that maximum applies to all state schools so I can't even double up by picking up classes at another institution. It is just a side job for me but I know there are some adjuncts that rely on it as a primary source of income. It's really fucked up how adjuncts are treated.
It basically means their position is a subcontractor for them, not an employee of twitch. By this contract they can then pay them whatever without benefits and make them sign an NDA so they can't talk about it and negotiate wages.
In the United States, anyway. It was one of the rights won after years of bloody strikes and is part of of the National Labor Relations Act of 1935. Unfortunately, a lot of people are forgetting how hard people fought for those rights and that the New Deal was on the conservative side of the solutions proposed. There were quite a few people who wanted to simply take over each workplace and run each one as its own little democracy and electing each coordinator position.
You need to explain to your boss that you out-qualify this person and should be paid more and if they don't agree, they need to give you a reason why and you need to start looking for a new job.
I disagree. You need to show your value and what you do for the business and ask for a raise on your own merit. Bringing up someone else isn't likely to get you anywhere. Most likely the skill he's one upped on is negotiating and self promotion.
Or he started with the company before he out-qualified the new guy, and the incremental raises didn't match up to what he could get as a new hire with his current resume.
You often have to trade income for stability. If you want to always make what you are worth you will usually have to move around.
Everyone is correct, because there are numerous reasons why this could happen. The salary being discussed is a nuisance because the applicant was able to negotiate their way into whatever level of wage our vacation. When the long term employee goes to ask why they don't get that, the manager is put into the spot of having to disclose details of a private interview. There's not a lot of good answers, and a lot of employees don't like "please hang on while I figure out the best response."
That's how it is at the company I work for. I have been there for a while and know that my peers who are getting hired at my current level are starting out with much better pay since my salary over the years only increased 2-5% a year. I did get a little extra % for my big promotion, but I'm still between $5-10k lower than my peers.
This may seem like a dumb question, bu have you asked for more? My company does biannual reviews and at my last one, after my boss had finished his points I brought up the fact that I wanted to discuss my salary. I went in to the discussion with a list of everything I brought to the company and about how I felt that I was worth more now than I was when I was hired due to experience and my impact on the workplace. Long story short, I walked out with about 6k more a year. I know that this usually isn't a norm.. but there is honestly never harm in asking, and if there is then you should consider looking somewhere else.
Lots of good replies here. At the end of the day the new guy shouldn't have discussed it. It's a confidential contract between him and the employer.
I'm in a position that requires me to recruit occasionally and due to our industry it's very difficult to find someone who is appropriately experienced. Sometimes this means we have to offer more to secure them in the company.
This doesn't mean we are undervaluing our other staff but does make it very difficult if they find out.
This whole thread is about how talking about salary is taboo but probably shouldn't be. Any particular reason why it should be considered wrong for employees at a company to discuss the pay they receive for working the same position?
It's usually a contract confidentiality thing.
We have individual contracts that are customised to each employee.
Sometimes the difference in pay is purely (as stated before) a matter of needing to offer more to secure an employee in a difficult industry.
Other times it's that even though you might be more certified and hold more industry experience your value to the company may not be as high. It sounds harsh but personality, customer service and adaptability play a big part in my technology based industry.
The company is perfectly justified in paying two people two different salaries for the same job. But at the same time, the lower-paid employee is still allowed to ask for whatever raise they want, and point to the other guy's salary as evidence that that's the market value of their skillset.
If the company really does value them the same, then they shouldn't have a problem with paying commensurate compensation to keep the employee on. If they don't, then they shouldn't have a problem with the guy walking away.
Yes, there is a difference in which jobs women go into. More women become nurses and more men become doctors, so nothing to correct there. Women are more nurturing anyways, and men are better at thinking and being in charge so it makes sense to divide them that way.
This was a specific comment about when employees negotiate their salaries-- in these jobs, women end up paid less than men for the same jobs.
You only need to look at walmart, where women are disproportionately not made managers, which is higher paying, tor realize there is still some disparity.
I agree though; I should have say 'that's one of the reasons why women make less'.
I don't follow how succinctly describing relevant industries is circlejerking.
That's why women make less.
This was a specific comment
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You only need to look at walmart, where women are disproportionately not made managers, which is higher paying, tor realize there is still some disparity.
I'm not convinced narrowing our field of view to a single company is indicative of an inherent bias against women's pay, especially when men are generally known to seek higher education that qualifies them more for higher positions within a field.
Stem= hood and high paying and everything else = crap is the stem circlejerk. I say this being in a stem field. In addition, stem is probably not the best to bring up when talking about gender inequality, as women face some of the greatest barriers entering stem fields.
Basically, you're saying that men pursue higher paying jobs, and that's why they are paid more, therefore there isn't discrimination.
I'm saying there's discrimination, which results in women pursuing lower paying jobs.
And I think the discussion of the nation's largest employer would be relevant to a discussion about wages?
I don't know why you are downvoted. It's the truth. Women are far less likely to negotiate for higher wages then men are statistically. Fucking knee jerk reddit...it's not an old boys club at every company.
You are paid EXACTLY what you are worth. If you were worth more you would walk out the door and hire on at a competitor. After all you're worth more right?
Really? Because from an economical point of view the trade we make in money for labor is in perfect balance. Otherwise the employer would be forced out of the labor market.
But that's not my point. Either we accept that we are responsible for our lives or we let others guide us for their purposes. We each make that choice with every decision of every day. Want more money? Figure out how to get more money, because that's exactly what thegal driving that new lexus did.
Employees are paid the minimum they are willing to be paid for their work. If there are only 10 jobs for 100 people, of course the company only hires the 10 that are willing to accept the lowest salary. That is just a simplified explanation on how demand vs supply works.
Life isn't fair, it doesnt have rationale. All we have is us. We can take was is handed to us and sit by as spectators to our lives. Or we can accept that we are going to take the reins, empower ourselves and do what is best. This is not a spectator sport.
Well, i have a house with a view of tbe city, a nice job with pleasant coworkers in an interesting field, a beautiful SO sleeping next to me as i cuddle my cat and chat on the internet from my S6. So... pretty fucking good. How's it going for you?
That would be ideal, yes. Except for all the non-compete clause in our contracts. I work in pharma and I'm not allowed to work for a direct competitor within 1 year of leaving. I didn't give a fuck and went on anyway. There's really nothing they can do to enforce it.
bahahahaha. First of all, theirs no way concrete or agreed way to measure a labourer's worth, so that's impossible. People get paid far less or far more than they're "worth" to a capitalist all the time. Its arbitrary and you're fooling yourself if your think otherwise. Capitalism: the fantasy that an 'invisible hand' always make every outcome fair.
You don't get it. We are all paid exactly what we are "worth" in the given context, because your employee gives that amount of money, and you accept that amount of money as compensation for your time. It's not about capitalism being fair (it's not), but if you do a job that pays you jackshit, in that context you are accepting that your time is worth what they pay you. It doesn't determine your worth as a human, that's an intangible thing, just how much your worth is determined between you and your employer.
But accepting a salary doesnt mean jack shit in terms of worth. companies make mistakes all the time about employee pay and are forced to either benefit or suffer from it. The act of agreement has no special bearing on 'worth'.
Actually, I'm much more socialist than capitalist. I just believe that you must make your own way as much as possible in this world because you are your own best ally.
"the reason why is that the new guy was only willing to work for Y, and if offered less than Y wouldn't have started: we wanted him. Meanwhile you were willing to work for X. You have had no jump in your performance that indicates a substantial raise. Do you complain every time your telecom company offers new customers a better deal than the 2-year contract you were locked into? If x wasn't enough for you, you should have mentioned it then. Not due to us hiring someone else."
.. would be the company's answer. Which is why the ONLY way to get a meaningful jump in salary is to simply switch jobs. Tell the other companies what you'll work for (in this case "Y", since it's the market salary) and whichever accepts you first, you just go work for. That's how you get 30% jumps in salary instead of 5% increases. Due to various reasons, nobody will just bump your salary up 30% from one day to the next. the right thing is to start somewhere else.
by the way - that guy they just hired, who is making Y: do you think he was making Y at his last job? No way!
Fortunately this was in the past. The issue was dropped, nothing was happen, and another boss basically explained that it is what it is. I eventually left that job for bigger and better things.
I tried that but it didn't matter. They basically said it is what it is and that I shouldn't know this information to begin with. This was a few years ago, and while I've been through a few jobs I'm pretty happy with where I'm at right now.
Thats not how it works. What someone else makes has no bearing on what someone else is worth. He would need to show his boss that a) he brings more value than he's asking for and b) that he's willing to walk if he doesn't get a salary bump.
If he cannot do both of those things, the salary bump is not likely.
I disagree to a point. Going to a current employer and saying "I have XYZ offer for $XX from another company, can you match it or beat it?" will result in several possibilities.
The current employer says "we can't match/beat it. Go ahead and take it." Now you have to leave your job, which you might have loved except for the salary, or else admit that you didn't really want the other job, and stay at your current salary and look like a schlemiel. (45% possibility)
The current company says "ok we'll match/beat it, here's $XX amount more per paycheck." Then Current Company starts looking for your replacement because you've just shown that you're looking to jump ship and aren't loyal (but of course companies don't feel they have to be loyal back, yeah I'm a little bitter). (45% possibility)
Current company matches/beats the other offer and everything goes on exactly as before otherwise. (10% possibility)
If you have time to hang out on reddit, you have time to update your coverletter/resume. It literally takes minutes to send those off to people.
Look, I get that some people have situations going on, but complaining because someone makes more than you isn't going to do any good. There may be many different reasons for this. You could have been working there for years and you got hired on at x dollars an hour, which at the time made sense. It's not the new guys fault that he makes more, he just either negotiated better or the pay package was better.
You could also be a shitty employee. I've met more of those than I care to admit. They always like to blame their misfortune on someone else, when in reality they should be taking a look at their attitude. Your skill set, certifications, etc don't mean shit if you are a pain in the ass to work with.
That job they had me contracted out to local govt. Loved the job, hated the pay. Basically public pay without any pension or benefits. Then I went privste sector with more pay, but eventually got laid off.
I went back to public for a different Township and absolutely hated it. Couldn't afford to work there and was basically told this is it for you, we won't give raises. Now I'm private and absolutely loving it. I'm a contractor, but as long as that gets renewed I'm good!
This was already done. :-) I had left that job for a better paying job requiring less work. Two jobs after that I found some place that I'm really happy, and while I'm a contractor I hope I can find a way to get my foot in the door permanently.
If you're in the USA its actually SUPER illegal for your boss to tell you not to discuss your pay with coworkers. If he even implies it or fosters a culture of silence he's breaking the law big-time. He needs to get his shit together and take this seriously.
Can legally bar employees from talking about their salaries to people outside the company, the website Ask A Manager advises. That's because the NLRA only protects employee discussions within the company.
May be able to prohibit employees from discussing salary during times when they're supposed to be working. However, as the Texas Workforce Commission explains, employers should be careful about enforcing such a rule -- especially if they only limit conversations about salary, but allow the discussion of other topics during the workday. That may appear to be an NLRA violation.
I wish I had known that in the past. This was back in 2007, and I don't think that direct manager works for the company anymore. I also doubt there was anything that could be done without recording the conversation. It was a raw deal. I worked there for another year. A friend came in offering me a job with the company he works at. That job already told me if they lose the contract I lose them, so I left.
I eventually left that job. When they played their cards on how important I was to them, I didn't want to stick it out and keep making them money. A friend stopped by and offered me a better job with his company back then so I took it.
We believe it was a mixture of negotiating better when he started than when I did (I was there two years at this point), and he might have had some college. No degree, but he had gone.
This led me to go to college and right now feeling one of my biggest financial mistakes ever.
I don't think there was anything written. They were pissed because it was discussed, but I don't think they could've enforced anything. I live in NJ so I'm sure if they wanted to they could've found some other subtle reason to fire me and there's nothing I can do.
Good for you, man. That's actually very difficult for people to muster up the courage to do. If you wouldn't have spoken up, I'd bet you'd be really disappointed in yourself. Fuck that prick boss of yours. I hope they eat shit doing something tomorrow.
I believe this is how I started it. I still went about it wrong and it became a discussion of "wtf, this guy makes more and shouldn't" but it was too late.
I agree everyone knowing what everyone makes is great in theory, terrible in practice. If your not happy with your rate do something, if you are happy with your compensation then great. I've found out what co-workers have made several times, and even when I made more it didn't really give me much satisfaction, but when I made less it bugged me to no end. I would make a plan to ask for a raise in the future and work for the next couple months to make sure I was in a good position to negotiate, then ask the boss. This worked fairly well, I always got something for my efforts not always what I wanted but I didn't leave empty handed. So I guess I gained a little by knowing a coworker made more than me because it lit a little fire under me to improve my own situation, but I'm not sure it was worth it. Also pro tip of your serious about negotiating salary then be prepared to quit, I feel if you feel strongly enough that you need a raise then you should be prepared to work elsewhere if you don't get it. It's really the only bargaining chip you have.
Just remember that the labor bureau frowns on this and it is technically illegal to stop employees from discussing their details with each other. It's especially illegal if that's in their employment contract you signed.
In my experience I may go somewhere else and try to negotiate better to what you think you should be making. They won't pay you more simply because you know you're making the least. Now you know how much they think you're worth compared to other employees.
I think you need to take a different perspective on this. The other person probably negotiated themselves a better deal. I understand that it seems like you are getting the raw deal, but perhaps you just didn't get everything the company may have offered you if you'd pushed harder. Part of every deal is how you sell yourself.
This is very true and something I had struggled with. It was a lot easier to negotiate a deal when you already have a job which is what happened with the current job. When you're unemployed they won't pay you much because they know something is better than nothing, which is what happened at the last job.
It means he negotiated his salary better than you did when he was hired. Many folks don't try to negotiate at all, not sure if you did or not.
My company runs into problems with H1B visa workers - the government requires any company that hires an H1B to post a notice on their cube for 10 days after they start that state that they're a visa worker and they are being paid at least the prevailing range, and we have to list a salary range. That causes butthurt feelings amongst other employees, which causes some companies not to post the notice, then they get fined by the government, etc. It's a cluster for sure.
It never fails. Back then I was much younger and didn't know much about negotiating. What doesn't help is that it was a friend who gave me the job so I trusted that it was fair. He wasn't the one to hire the other guy though.
I got an email about my coworkers salary by mistake and found out he was making almost twice as much while I had two years on him, better evals, and more certs.
I immediately applied for better jobs and once I had a few interviews, then I went to my boss to talk about my salary.
At least he managed to try to match the salary so that's a plus. I love how someone spends more money at a school for the same piece of paper as you, so they're expected to make more. Bummer!
You know, I was new at my job and I couldn't understand why the guy got mad at me. I was paid 2000 dollars more for the same job he did but with a difference I was full time and contract which means I wasn't taxed.. He was angry even though he's been work 5 years dispite him being an ass hole I see how he felt.
In my case we were both full time employees. I wasn't an asshole about anything and kept my head down and did my work. My customers liked me and my company tried to mess with that. It was all about negotiation when he started.
Ultimately I didn't. It wasn't significantly more, about 5 grand. Eventually I left on my own accord as a friend came by and offered me a job elsewhere.
It may be a determination but how I control that escapes me. I'm in a situation that escapes me right now. This situation the employers were very unhappy with me since I knew the salary information, and even more unhappy with me that I decided to discuss that.
If memory serves me correct, they may have swapped me and the other guys customers because we both discussed it, and these new customers were inconvenient for both. It was only a month long project, but they ruined business with my customer because of it.
I'm in trouble because I discussed it and it was none of my business
LOL, of course it's your fucking business. You and another human being had discussion and you learned that the company is underpaying you. Your boss is a dick.
I agree. There was no employee loyalty. I made them tons of money and the customer wanted to keep me (but contract me out, not hire me directly lol), and my work basically said if they lose the contract they're getting rid of me. This was years ago and they're struggling now while I'm thriving.
Its in your contract, read it and stop being a mindless sheep of the system. If you don't like the contract, renegotiate it. If you take the job you have nothing to complain about. Capitalism.
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u/Punkrulz Jul 14 '15
This one hurt me. A new coworker who did the same job I did told me he was making more. I had everything on this guy... More certs, more years experience, more training, and above all I was 100% billable which meant my company didn't pay a dime for me and made significantly more than I got paid.
Of course I decide to ask my boss wtf, but I'm in trouble because I discussed it and it was none of my business. It's none of my business how you're screwing me over?