r/Anticonsumption • u/effortDee • Dec 04 '23

David Attenborough has just asked everyone to go plant based on Planet Earth III Environment

Attenborough "if we shift away from eating meat and dairy and move towards a plant based diet then the suns energy goes directly in to growing our food.

and because that is so much more efficient we could still produce enough to feed us, but do so using just a quarter of the land.

This could free up the area the size of the United States, China, EU and Australia combined.

space that could be given back to nature."

3.5k Upvotes

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397

u/Dapper_Bee2277 Dec 04 '23

I have my own garden and raise chickens, I have zero electricity, and barely burn any gas. All that still isn't going to stop the military industrial complex or the fast food companies, or the power companies burning coal, or billionaires with their private jets and yachts.

It's always the lower class that's expected to make sacrifices, even when we aren't the problem.

189

u/Deathtostroads Dec 04 '23

We need to end all of that and animal agriculture. Ignoring the scientists telling us the environmental devastation caused by animal agriculture isn’t productive

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u/CHudoSumo Dec 04 '23

People want to pretend they dont have to change. If they convince themselves their actions have no effect they can stay the same.

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u/trashed_culture Dec 04 '23

I'm over it. You gotta be rich to vote with your dollars.

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u/CHudoSumo Dec 04 '23

Eating vegan is cheaper. Meat and dairy are expensive.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '23

Meat and dairy are subsidized to hell. That's why I hate the argument about a vegan diet being expensive. Also, veg, beans, greens, and grains aren't expensive.

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u/CHudoSumo Dec 04 '23

Thats right. Neither is tofu.

0

u/mantasm_lt Dec 04 '23

Meat and dairy also grow in very varied environments. While a lot of vegan options seem to be based on stuff that grows in rather narrow band. That's why meat and dairy got so popular in the first place I guess...

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u/InstanceAgreeable548 Dec 04 '23

That’s subjective. Where I live dairy products are far cheaper than the alternatives. Meat is expensive though.

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u/Velaseri Dec 04 '23

Cheese is more expensive than beans? That's crazy, where are you?

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u/InstanceAgreeable548 Dec 04 '23

Dairy alternatives. I’m in Ireland where dairy farming is heavily subsidised and has destroyed most of the environment. A family will find it much cheaper to buy cows milk than soy or whatever.

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u/notsosecrethistory Dec 04 '23

I found soy milk in SuperValu for 79c a few days ago, which is cheaper than equivalent volume of milk. Change is coming!

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u/Velaseri Dec 04 '23

Oh wow, that sucks. I'm sorry.

Those industries should have to pay for the damage they caused and not get so many kickbacks!

Same here in Aus, though, with the meat industry, destroying so much land.

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u/InstanceAgreeable548 Dec 04 '23

They should. There’s a lot Of environmental destruction that farmers get away with north and south. Our biggest lough is now polluted from illegal waste dumping from farmers too. They’re generally not a group of people I have a lot of respect for.

We’re not dairy/meat/egg eaters in my house (I don’t check enough ingredient lists to say I’m vegan 😂). We also have some of the lowest breastfeeding rates in the world, formula is even more expensive than dairy alternatives so when you think about it it’s really understandable why a lot of parents switch to cows milk when baby turns one.

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u/CHudoSumo Dec 04 '23

Milk is cheaper than soy, almond, oat milk? Here in australia until recently 1L of milk was 1 dollar but now the cheap non dairy milks are the same price as dairy or cheaper. Vegan cheese is expensive but also unnecessary. Part of going vegan/plant based involves changing what you eat.

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u/InstanceAgreeable548 Dec 04 '23

Yeah, milk would be a lot cheaper here than alternative milk. A quick look at my Tesco app says cows milk is currently £1.55 for 2 litres and soya is £2 for 1 litre.

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u/CHudoSumo Dec 04 '23

I can see £.90 litres of soy milk at ireland aldi.

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u/InstanceAgreeable548 Dec 04 '23

I’m in the north and we don’t have Aldi. Anyway, you’re preaching to the choir here because I don’t consume animal products. The fact is that for many families with young children cows milk is the cheaper option. Our breastfeeding rates are some of the lowest in the world, and formula is stupid expensive. I feel lucky to breastfeed my daughter and other than allergy exposure tests she’s been kept cruelty free. It’s not an option for a lot of mums here who are struggling to keep the house warm, never mind worrying about animal welfare or environmental impact.

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u/Expontoridesagain Dec 04 '23

I envy you. My kids can't drink milk because of allergies. I pay 4 AUD for 1l of cheapest oat milk. Kids love almond and coconut but I can't afford it because it costs 8,40 AUD for 1l. In some countries people just can't afford to go 100% plantbased.

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u/CHudoSumo Dec 04 '23 edited Dec 04 '23

Right, so you can afford plant based milk cause you buy it already. If a vegan or someone who wanted to be plant based lived somewhere that soy mklk etc didnt even exist lets say. They wouldnt drink cows milk, theyd just not have milk. If someone is in a situation where they literally have no alternative, then theres nothing you can do about that. It's about doing as much as you literally can. Which for most people in western nations would be to be fully plant based/vegan.

1

u/mantasm_lt Dec 04 '23

Almond milk is fucking expensive. And almond grows in very few places on earth compared to cows. Hmmm, transport stuff across the globe or milk a local cow? Soy doesn't exactly grow everywhere either. Oat is more universal though.

1

u/CHudoSumo Dec 05 '23

Bulk transport via cargo ship is actually very low impact compared to livestock.

But almonds specifically are something i avoid myself as they are grown with absurd water requirements, often in places without the water to spare.

1

u/mantasm_lt Dec 05 '23

I'm more worried about local economy and local ecology. It's not cool to send fuckton of money oversees. Both to farms and shippers. And those who make the fuel for the ships.

On top of that, here grazing fields are important part of the ecosystem. Both fauna and flora has adapted to grazing. Grazing fields are no less diverse than old-grown forest. And then there're some sparse forests-borderline-grazing-fields which are best of both worlds. Although they're slowly going away since modern farming has a hard time with them. But even grazing fields are great.

That's the alternative? Let diverse fields overgrow into forests (we have plenty of those already)? Fuck over local dairy farms and ruin local economy? And grazing fields do look much better than monoculture oat fields.

That's a though sell TBH.

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u/DaisyCutter312 Dec 04 '23

We need to end all of that and animal agriculture

It's pointless to even say that, because short of a One-World government with a healthy dose of martial law thrown in, that will never happen.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '23

Everybody gets a swimming pool but NO CHICKENS!

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u/Deathtostroads Dec 04 '23

Who is getting a swimming pool? Why would everyone get a swimming pool? What does that have to do with animal agriculture?

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '23

You’re arbitrarily deciding that a luxury favored by other people is ‘the one big thing’. I own a piece of land that’s 20x20 meters, I can use it for chickens to grow eggs or put a swimming pool there. Every possible human land use has costs and benefits, there is no single itemized list of best to worst. All of the worst is what is corrupted by the most base profit-driven capitalism.

Close down the dairy farm and put a dollar store there? Different example of the same analogy.

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u/Deathtostroads Dec 04 '23

Ideally we’d rewild the former farm/pasture land and allow native ecosystems reclaim the land. This would act as a carbon sink and improve biodiversity

0

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '23

But it only works if it’s 100%? A chunk of my land moved from pasture to woods over the last 50 years. Is it only good enough if I can’t get any hay? Do we all have to move to the city?

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '23 edited Aug 05 '24

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '23

The vegans are all over all the livestock, look at your downvotes lol. Yes, non-vegan environment folks don’t mind small holdings including animal ag

0

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '23

Industrial scale animal agriculture, yes, but small scale animal agriculture is one of the best ways to rehabilitate land depleted by irresponsible farming.

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u/hangrygecko Dec 04 '23

Where do you want to get fertilizer from? Russian mines that run out in a few decades or homebred cows?

We need livestock to produce enough plant based food and we need livestock to make use of the infertile soil regions, because grass grows everywhere, and high protein vegetables do not.

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u/ironmagnesiumzinc Dec 04 '23

We ARE the problem though. Maybe you aren't, but the average person is. The average person pays for factory farmed meat and dairy. If they stopped, then factory farms would disappear.

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u/rgtong Dec 04 '23

What are you talking about?

If everyone did what you are doing that would massively impact the coal companies output and the billionaires income. How do you think the economy works?

Its not 'making sacrifices' its 'playing the game'. If people arent willing to do what needs to be done, then they have no right to complain (not referring to you, since it seems you are already a model in this regard).

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u/Avedas Dec 04 '23

How do you have a garden and raise chickens from a small apartment?

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u/rgtong Dec 04 '23 edited Dec 04 '23

You cannot.

But you can educate yourself and others on sustainability. You can push your workplace to be more sustainable. You can vote for politicians who make it a priority. You can buy products from companies that make it a priority. You can avoid excessive consumerism. You can try to buy local products. You can reduce meat consumption. And a bunch of other things im sure - we can all do something.

edit: You realize that people who have small gardens dont farm enough to live, right? The idea is what small changes in your life can you do to be more sustainable.

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u/Dapper_Bee2277 Dec 04 '23

Billionaires would still be on their private jets and yachts because they have more money than they could ever spend in a single lifetime. Furthermore the military is responsible for the majority of greenhouse gas emissions, whatever sacrifices we make isn't going to change that.

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u/rgtong Dec 04 '23

Furthermore the military is responsible for the majority of greenhouse gas emissions

Doesnt sound even nearly correct to me. Transportation and agriculture are already half or more of greenhouse gasses - and those are related to consumerism, which is directly related to how we decide to spend our money.

whatever sacrifices we make isn't going to change that.

Sounds like a nice an easy excuse for people to not do anything.

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u/DaweiArch Dec 04 '23

How do you have zero electricity?

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u/Eifand Dec 04 '23

You can't be lower class, though, if you have land to have garden and raise chickens and use zero electricity and burn any gas. You probably have some sizable land. Subsistence farming has actually become a luxury for most of us in the Developed World.

12

u/mountainofclay Dec 04 '23

Depends on the specific region. You can grow a lot of food on two acres in West Virginia, the poorest area in the US. Two acres in somewhere like San Francisco is a luxury. In West Virginia it is not. What you are saying is true but it likely explains why so many have left suburbia post Covid.

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u/ggtffhhhjhg Dec 04 '23

Two acres in SF is beyond a luxury.

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u/Toyfan1 Dec 04 '23

So, if you live somewhere that 2 acres is a luxury, youd have to move to a place that does.

Which means you need money to move. This reads like a "Pick yourself up by your bootstraps" type of argument.

3

u/Dapper_Bee2277 Dec 04 '23

I have zero money and own no land, it's actually the only way I've been able to survive these last few months after breaking my back.

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u/SeanBreeze Dec 04 '23

I’m a vegan.. becoming a vegan isn’t just about diet, it makes you care more about animals, about your spirituality, about health, the environment, and more focused on ways to solve simple problems.

If everyone went vegan then all those problems you mentioned would solve themselves. Most crime, hateful attitudes, weird vibes and pure negativity comes from ppl who refuse to make lifestyle changes. I don’t want to suffer or be treated wrongly, I feel the same for animals and the environment. Human liberation leads to animal liberation which leads to environmental liberation which leads to the end of war, fast food, end of fossil fuels, end of the stagnant world that we’ve been forced to accept. There are tons of new laws pushing for a better society and a cleaner way of living. Look at the EV car trend and solar trend. The world will be completely different by 2030 and unrecognizable by 2050

0

u/IntoTheForeverWeFlow Dec 04 '23

, it makes you care more about animals, about your spirituality, about health, the environment,

Hunting does this as well. Kinda interesting.

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u/SeanBreeze Dec 04 '23 edited Dec 04 '23

😒 trying to kill stuff and spending money on ammo and weapons (not to defend yourself from bullies, harm, or terror) but to go to someone’s home to murder them is good for animals? Your spirit? You and their health? And the environment?? 🤔

Re-reading your post, I’m hoping “Hunting” is the name of a person or something, then your post would make much more sense

Or maybe the thought of hunting makes people reconsider about the lives of animals, about the state of their mental health, about their spirit and how they are affecting their environment and the lives of others?? 🤔🙂 that’s a bit more of a heartwarming thought ☺️

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u/Dapper_Bee2277 Dec 04 '23

Vegans are just left wing reactionaries who can't tell the difference between corporate greenwashing and legitimate effective policy changes.

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u/SeanBreeze Dec 04 '23

Elaborate. Seems like you’re grouping a large class of people into a small ideology that you’ve created. I do know some ppl who would fall into that category but most vegans I know aren’t democrat or republican, but would probably be more well-read and conservative lifestyle wise. From my experience over the past decade, most ppl who are anti-vegan aren’t the smartest in the pack usually. Their lifestyles and health usually reflects those choices. 🙂. The vegan who are anything like me would fall more inline with sustainability and health/environmentally conscious. Most vegans aren’t rigid in thought and tend to be able to make decisions that make sense for long term benefit. (Like not killing things, like not destroying your own environment, like not working self and others into a slave system, etc).

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u/Dapper_Bee2277 Dec 04 '23

You did the thing that most vegans do assume that everyone else outside of their belief system is stupid, which is just as bad as believing you can't be wrong.

I respect what vegans are trying to do but it's ineffectual. It would be far more effective to be anti consumer capitalism, it wouldn't solve all the other problems but it's something individuals have control over. Just a small example, an egg I gab out from my backyard has a smaller footprint than an apple shipped across the world from an industrial farm.

But being vegan is easy, it allows people to participate in consumer capitalism without making any of those effective but difficult lifestyle changes.

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u/SeanBreeze Dec 04 '23 edited Dec 04 '23

If you live without electricity like you said then that’s effective. We chose solar, which is effective for us. Our carbon footprint is low. I’ve raised a bunch of animals, I have a puppy, I don’t eat any of their stuff or force any kind of payload onto them. I’ve raised birds and chickens, but don’t eat eggs, the birds were vegan, so is the puppy and cows. The puppy (she’s an adult but likes being called a puppy over a “dog” 🤷🏾‍♂️) she isn’t aggressive but would protect me if needed and I’d do the same for her. I don’t grow my food, people in todays society and economy still are working so I use technology to have my food delivered or buy in bulk. Me and my wife both own businesses so when we do buy things we try to do it locally or what’s practical and ethical. It would be great if we could all stop buying things etc but that’s not quite the problem. Many countries have suffered from pollution, deforestation, crime, terrorism. Veganism and activism helps solve those things. Animals can live freely and have help from humans that way. Am I better than someone who wants to kill a cow? Yes. Not “holier than thou” but a better friend to the cow than someone who needs to kill it to “live” 😒

Do you still eat meat? If so, living in the dark is cool, but I’m not sure how that’s helping the “world” or the environment if there’s suffering and abuse still taking place. I’m married and purposely don’t have kids, none of my animals procreate, it’s enough things to do and enough food to eat without “needing” to eat an animals potential kids. I don’t even destroy gardens or get my fruit off of fruit trees purposely. I’ve been to the rainforest, jungles and untouched lands, it looks better when people aren’t destroying it. I’m not huge into capitalism but eating an animals by product is a different kind of capitalist play just looked at through a different lens honestly

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u/NoTurkeyTWYJYFM Dec 04 '23

Great, being vegan is easy. It's also unquestionably the correct moral choice and has been proved time and time again to be the best individual change a person can make for the planet. Why not become one?

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u/effortDee Dec 04 '23

Vegan data scientists who does nature and wildlife film making.

You are full of bollocks.

2

u/Velaseri Dec 04 '23

Leftwing reactionary is an oxymoron.

Reactionary:

"opposing political or social progress or reform.

synonyms: conservative, right-wing, rightist, ultra-conservative, ultra-right, alt-right, blimpish, diehard, traditionalist, conventional, traditional, old-fashioned, unprogressive, true-blue

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u/SOULJAR Dec 04 '23

Do you think most “poor” people raise chickens or buy meat in grocery stores? It’s not exclusive the the poor really, most in general buy from the there store.

And Attenboroughs message isn’t saying only poor people should do this, he’s saying we shouldn’t support a terrible industry - which seems to be the route you’ve taken yourself to be honest.

1

u/Dapper_Bee2277 Dec 04 '23

America's definition of poor compared to the rest of the world is laughably privileged. A family in Central America could get by with some chickens and a couple acres but in Americans can't live without a car and cell phone. We're so detached from our food we don't even know anything about the process. Livestock turn inedible grass into food, that's the majority of what they eat. The assumption that we'd have 10 times more food if we stopped eating livestock is just wrong because 93% of what livestock eats is inedible to humans.

The rich are playing a propaganda game, they're shifting focus away from themselves to the poor and disadvantaged and blaming our diet. People lived off of livestock for thousands of years, climate change is a result of industrialization and globalization.

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u/SOULJAR Dec 04 '23

That’s not what this is about.

The rich would much prefer you buy meat in grocery stores. The assertion that they don’t, and would prefer you go vegan, is false.

Attenborough is advocating for not supporting the industrialized meat production. He’s not some agent of the rich feeding propaganda or blame, as you see to be suggesting

Also, why would you eat what livestock eat? That has nothing to do with this. He’s making the well known and understood point that it’s far more efficient/sustainable to grow food rather than to farm animals.

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u/Redqueenhypo Dec 04 '23

Shut up and eat your beansrice with your 5 roommates! I am not describing a 19 century tenement, shh

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u/Cargobiker530 Dec 04 '23

This isn't about consumption at all. It's the vegan cultists raiding other subs because all the conversations on the vegan sub are about how shitty they feel, how bad the food tastes, and why their hair is falling out.

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u/No_Answer4092 Dec 04 '23

For effective climate change efforts to work EVERYONE will have to make sacrifices. Who do you think consumes fast food, the energy of the coal they burn, or the products that make billionaires filthy rich?

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u/bettercaust Dec 04 '23

Nothing wrong with what you personally or doing, but there is a problem with industrial animal agriculture.

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u/ComplexAdditional451 Dec 04 '23

It's the animals that pay the highest price for our choices. Compare suffering of a chicken, genetically modified to a point where it van no longer walk or stand, spending all few weeks of their life in some factory, never experiencing sun, fresh air, grass, wind, free movement - with 'suffering' of a person abstaining from animal products. The second one is laughable. People still have much pleasure in life whether they eat animal produce or not.

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u/gay_married Dec 04 '23

Not eating animal products is not a sacrifice. It was never yours to begin with.